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  #101  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Offering consumer electronics in a variety of colors is just plain a good idea
OMG why is it that some things, cheap cell phones come to mind, only come in pink or black? The one I have now has a tiny midnight blue border around the black screen and with a black back so might as well be black

I notice this was small rolling suitcases too. I want to differentiate my bag from the river of black and my only choice is pink?
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  #102  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
OMG. From Demi's link:
Quote:
"Can I get my Street Fighter without the sexual harassment?” He replied, “You can’t. You can’t because they’re one and the same thing. This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of the culture. If you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community…. It doesn’t make sense to have that attitude. These things have been established for years.”
So it's okay as long as it's part of a subculture?
It's worth noting that that was a HUGE deal. I don't follow or care about gaming at all, but I heard about it from several different sources; and the public pressure led this gigantic and apparently unrepentant shitheel to issue a sloppy mostly non-apology:

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/aris-a...comments/4007/

So that guy said the same kind of thing that people in those communities have been saying forever without challenge, and now people who don't follow gaming culture at all recognize him as "that stupid shitheel."
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  #103  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I hadn't heard anything about it until just now.
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Besides Capcom, all silently declined.
So what about the community, as a whole, have they either supported or rebuked their publicly loudmouthed members?


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Originally Posted by Shitheel
I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened
Oh wah! Seriously, being asked to not sexually harass other players is a threat to you?
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  #104  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I will wait til I get home to check out the links and vids... BUT STOP HATING ON MY BLACK ELECTRONICS! :brooding:
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  #105  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I don't hate them, I just wish there were more colors to choose from! Digging in a dark purse for a black phone isn't easy you know!
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  #106  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Hah. You try finding a specific article of clothing in my unlit closet. Now that's tough.
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  #107  
Old 06-11-2012, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

All my stuff is black or sometimes silver, too, and for those who haven't memorized my profile from Tiger Beat, my favorite color is gray.

But I have to call my cell phone to find it all the damned time because it blends in with all the other black rectangles, so as a completely practical matter, I would probably prefer bright colors for small portable electronics, all other things being equal. As it is, I sometimes just use a sticker or something, or like on my music player, I have a white cord wrapper thing I made out of white Sugru that makes it a little easier to spot.

I can send you some Lisa Frank stickers and stuff if you want, Mr. blood.
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  #108  
Old 06-11-2012, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I always want to put stickers on my stuff but as sure as I do, the device will self destruct and I'll be out a sticker. :brooding:
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  #109  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Oh, hey.

I don't remember if anyone linked to this yet, but:

Harassment, Misogyny and Silencing on YouTube | Feminist Frequency

In short, Feminist Frequency was raising funds through Kickstarter for a series on video games. She uncharacteristically, and I like to imagine calculatedly, left the comments on the fundraising video open. So predictably, it was all Tits or GTFO, kitchens, sandwiches, and Someone please think of teh menz and stuff.

And of her goal of $6K, she has as of right now raised $49,447.

I think that illustrates pretty well, for anyone paying attention, that while you see a lot of stupid puerile stuff out there in 'geek' culture, there are a lot of people who are sick of it, and who can afford to support projects that reject it.
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  #110  
Old 06-11-2012, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Wow. Da Jooz have a surprisingly strong presence amidst da slutz.
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  #111  
Old 06-12-2012, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I just looked up Lisa Frank on Wikipedia. :brooding:
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  #112  
Old 06-12-2012, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

My gawd, WTF is wrong with people? And what's with the threatening rape alla time?
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  #113  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Felicia Day also wants to know. Also I hate country, but really a music video ruined gaming? THAT HORSE HAS ALREADY LEFT THE BARN.


4Chan delcares this to have ruined gaming:

&feature=autoplay&list=PL94269DA08231042B&playnext=1
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  #114  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I'm subscribed to Geek&Sundry so I saw that early yester-morn. I thought "aww, that's cute," mostly just because it's Felicia Day doing something. I'm okay with country music, and Felicia Day is p cool and all. It wasn't until much later in the day when I poked my Tweeter and discovered that people were hate filled haters. Maybe it's just because I'm old and easily confused by young folk, but I don't get it. If anyone or anything is "ruining gaming" it's Electronic Arts with their buying up everything and making it suck. An internet ingenue and her country music friends can't dent that industry. Heck up until yesterday, I believed she was helping revolutionize the way we are entertained and how we communicate online. Also, I thought geeks were totally and unreservedly smitten by her adorableness.
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  #115  
Old 06-12-2012, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I don't keep up with gaming news that much, being more retro than anything else, but it saddens me if EA is being shitty. I mean, Bard's Tale (TOS) and all. :sadyup:
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  #116  
Old 06-12-2012, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I generally can't stand country music and that's still a cute and funny video/song. Why people always gotta hate?
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  #117  
Old 06-12-2012, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

FYI, Vera Bradley makes special decals for electronics. So at least someone realizes that middle aged women buy electronics.
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  #118  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Yeah, I'm sure that there isn't going to be an immediate turnaround or anything, but I've seen some huge changes in the tech industry and culture just in recent years. People are actually calling out a lot of sexist practices that have gone almost entirely unchallenged since just about forever. Companies are actually having to apologize for things that have been standard practices in the industry since forever (booth girls, sexist marketing and pickup culture, things like that). A lot of conferences are adopting anti-harassment policies, and those that aren't are being called out on it.
Oh, I totally agree and that is wonderful. I just don't think women's purchasing power has much to do with that. I think the credit for that goes to women in the industry pushing for changes in labor practices, management, and being more vocal in terms of what they will tolerate.

Quote:
Women have been largely invisible in the tech sector for a long time, despite being there all along, so simply acknowledging that women are working in and buying technology is a pretty big step.
I totally understand. The article was focusing more on women as a consumer block and I just don't see that as the vehicle for change that the author did.

Quote:
I hate that term, but women who talk like that are actually referred to as special snowflakes, AKA "the only girl on the tennis court" or "one of the boys," and the phenomenon is pretty well documented and derided, which tends to take something from the whole claim of uniqueness that's central to it. Sometimes, just naming and calling out a behavior like that can really help to squash it. There's a certain point after which you have a blizzard of 'special snowflakes' that they realize that maybe they're not such exceptions to the gender rules and the other women they're setting themselves apart from are mostly just social constructs.
That is funny, most of the times I hear that term it is from teacher friends complaining about students who always want to be an exception. I think you are right, women in fields that are perceived as being "male dominated" should own their interests rather than putting themselves into that construct.

I also find it frustrating because like I said in the Pink/Blue thread, often women going into "men's" interests get a pat on the head for reaching UP whereas males who are into more "feminine" interests get ladyburned for not being male enough and moving DOWN. So the culture can reward women for being that token chick while punishing men for doing the opposite. Not only is it a double standard, but I think it shows pretty clearly how our culture prioritizes the values assigned to gender and what the hierarchy actually looks like.

Quote:
There will always be a conflict between casual vs. dedicated fans or anything, but gendering doesn't need to be a central part of it.
Definitely, I am just bracing myself for Madison Avenue to pick up on the existing cultural cues and smash us over the head with it.

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As far as the marketing and media narrative goes, I think the primary message needs to be that women aren't some new market that needs to be attracted. They already use the same consumer electronics that men do, and for the same reasons. So it's not a matter of pinkifying* electronics or making things 'friendlier' to some stereotypical demographic, but maybe it's just a matter of acknowledging that some of your customers are women by ditching the presumption of maleness and othering all the rest of your customers.
Exactly! Sadly, I am afraid that we are a minority even among women. I think that exploiting the cultural divide will make them more money though, because most people do not give it much thought. Consumers like individualized appeals that speak to them. Sadly, tribal appeals are totally effective for most people. If it presents an attractive myth of identity even better!

* Demimonde eats yogurt and waits for ass to shrink.

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Originally Posted by Ymir's blood View Post
I just looked up Lisa Frank on Wikipedia. :brooding:
:rofl: That seriously made me spit coffee.

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Originally Posted by Qingdai View Post
Felicia Day also wants to know. Also I hate country, but really a music video ruined gaming? THAT HORSE HAS ALREADY LEFT THE BARN.


4Chan delcares this to have ruined gaming:

Gamer Girl, Country Boy - Felicia Day & Jason Charles Miller - YouTube
Oh dude. I have been waiting for this to happen.

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Originally Posted by Kael View Post
I generally can't stand country music and that's still a cute and funny video/song. Why people always gotta hate?
I have a theory, but it is kinda gross.

Felicia Day has marketed herself as a geek goddess. It is funny, I think in this thread earlier she was pointed to as an authentic geek girl, the epitome of a non-poseur because she actually enjoys many of the things she promotes. I have seen that characterization ALL over the web. Seriously, anytime someone is accused of being a fake geek girl, Felicia Day is trotted out as idealized geek girl, who we should all aspire to be.

Geeks have the perception of her as "one of us." Beyond that, many feel like they own her. Male fans who idolize and fantasize about her know they personally have no chance with her. But while they can accept an analogue for themselves with her, such as Wil Wheaton, seeing her with a redneck country boy pushes all their rage buttons.

Think about it. Is there a culture that could be any more antithetical to geek culture? Many geeks have a serious smug superiority to the non-tech, "ignorant" southerner, sports loving, mainstream, flag waving type. While at the same time having insecurities about them "taking" their women. It is pretty damn icky when you think about it. Like in a black men taking the white women kinda way. Seriously gross to think that anyone could or should dictate who a woman is allowed to be sexually attracted to or to love.

Again, double standard time. Historically, men who seek out Othered women get cheers for finding the exotic and different. Orientalism is is sexy. Women who seek out Othered men though, are whores, sluts and betrayers to their own kind. Male geeks perceive that they are entitled to Felicia Day's sexuality in ways that they never would react if say, Wil Wheaton was to date Taylor Swift. Like in reality, not just in a stupid song.

What makes it even more hilarious is that Jason C Miller has HUGE geek cred, though many don't know his face. He is- gabba gabba- one of us. He just seems to be moving from industrial rock to alt country and blues as a musician.

I would say this is a troll on Felicia's part, but I don't think she is the type. I think she honestly wanted to collaborate with a friend, have some fun and sing. The backlash is doubly tragic, because the song itself is just a fun rollicking tune about how we all aren't that different and can't we just love each other, coexist, and survive. I imagine Day just wanted to share something different with her audience and it blew up big time. It is really sad.

Also, christ, if Day isn't safe from that kind of backlash, none of us are.
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  #119  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by Demimonde View Post
Again, double standard time. Historically, men who seek out Othered women get cheers for finding the exotic and different. Orientalism is is sexy. Women who seek out Othered men though, are whores, sluts and betrayers to their own kind. Male geeks perceive that they are entitled to Felicia Day's sexuality in ways that they never would react if say, Wil Wheaton was to date Taylor Swift. Like in reality, not just in a stupid song.
See the final frame:
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal

:giggles:

But yes in my prime I heard it plenty from my geek guy friends, "ew! why did you hook up with that idiot? you're so smart, you can do so much better. you should raise your standards if you respect yourself, blah blah blah..." And I'm like, you're not the one who has to like him! It wasn't his brain I was interested in. Believe it or not, I actually have my own tastes and standards. Jesus.

Contrary-wise, my geek girl friends were like, "go on, girl! break you off a piece!" :cheerleader:
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  #120  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Felicia Day stated that she just wanted to mash together two things that were as different as different can be, and this is what happened. I can't say if there was anything deeper involved in the project (bring cultures together, peace and harmony, etc). She was genuinely upset at the negativity that erupted.
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  #121  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by Ensign Steve View Post
See the final frame:
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal

:giggles:

But yes in my prime I heard it plenty from my geek guy friends, "ew! why did you hook up with that idiot? you're so smart, you can do so much better. you should raise your standards if you respect yourself, blah blah blah..." And I'm like, you're not the one who has to like him! It wasn't his brain I was interested in. Believe it or not, I actually have my own tastes and standards. Jesus.

Contrary-wise, my geek girl friends were like, "go on, girl! break you off a piece!" :cheerleader:
Dude, that is it exactly! Think about the implications of "appreciate her [like we could]" while at the same time NOT appreciating her. It is so possessive, so entitled, and so objectifying. Totally tribal shit, but the hypocrisy only goes one direction.

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Originally Posted by BrotherMan View Post
Felicia Day stated that she just wanted to mash together two things that were as different as different can be, and this is what happened. I can't say if there was anything deeper involved in the project (bring cultures together, peace and harmony, etc). She was genuinely upset at the negativity that erupted.
I totally believe that Bort. I think she was just trying to make something funny and fresh and different while collaborating with someone just a wee bit different. Sadly, it struck a nasty nerve that lies in the underbelly of her fan base.

Seriously, how sad is it that the song "Game On" that did the Bollywood mashup was drooled over and loved but this one gets huge hate? IMO it is because in "Game On" she was presented in the trappings of the Other and available, (eastern aesthetics was the very root of the Orientalism male fantasy). It was loved despite the fact that she is white and being wooed by a geeky Indian guy. That is totally acceptable to the culture, yet a non-geeky country boy is not.

Her first video, "Do You Want To Date My Avatar" presented her in an equally available manner. That one was filled with identifiers that appealed to her fan base and started the whole dream girl fantasy.

Seeing her do a love song duet with someone so contrary to the geek culture just makes them rage on a visceral primal level that is based on some ugly, ugly shit.
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  #122  
Old 06-13-2012, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

Felicia Day blogged about her experience in this whole thing and it kinda made me sick.

I can tell she is feeling a lot of pain about this and it must be really hard for her to go from such an adored online figure to getting a bunch of hate. Her apologetic tone just makes me so sad though, she has nothing to feel sorry for. She has been a great representative for geek girls even if she was idealized by her fans, she let no one down and I hope she knows this.

I thought this bit was extremely on topic for this thread though:

Quote:
I backed up and tried to figure out WHY it sparked so much hatred? I mean, sure, it’s low-fi, yes my eyeshadow is TERRIBLE (bad choice yeah), BUT I finally figured it out, I THINK. In all my years of championing gaming, I have ALWAYS avoided the title “Gamer Girl”. I always just said I’m a gamer, and left the gender unsaid. I don’t mean to disparage anyone who uses that title, to me, you change minds by being who you are, representing, and not pointing out you’re different from anyone else. That was just always my unconscious choice, to avoid that. But for THIS video in particular, I decided to portray a few stereotypical characters, I PLAYED a “Gamer Girl” and Jason Charles Miller PLAYED a “Country Boy”. WE WERE PLAYING CHARACTERS. But that didn’t really come across to some people, and I guess that gave them an IN to attack me, or attack the IDEA of “Gamer Girl” in that video. And the attack…thousands of Ouch.

Backing up, I feel like most of the hatred wasn’t even directed at ME personally, it was at this general IDEA of some “Gamer Girl” type, who, in the perceived mind of these guys, disenfranchises gamers? I dunno. Clearly a segment of guys on the internet HATE “Gamer Girls”. This is the part I don’t understand, why they are so frikkin emotional about it. They hate on this type of girl who “pretends” to game for attention. This archetype they can somehow factually attribute to a few women (then paint the whole gender with the brush) that exploit them for attention, cheapens their hobby with “casualism”…who knows. The irony here is that the “Hot Gamer Girl” is there because….guys click on them/watch them more than non-hot girls. So yeah, talk about creating their own problem, lol.

I know, for ME, when I started this road with The Guild, I had NO women to look at who were not wearing bikinis while they gamed. There was no “relatable” woman/girl figure for me to look to, and that’s why Codex, Clara and Tink are EXACTLY NOT THAT: Because that’s not who I personally gamed with, that bikini-chick. I gamed with moms and angry college students and shut-ins. So to be accused of pandering Girl Gamer, of BEING A CASUAL (whatever the EFF that means)…well, it hurt. But the comments from MY viewers, who didn’t wanna be bullied, that made my night. So thanks to all of you who commented, even if you didn’t like the video, who defended “casuals” and “girl gamers”. Whatever label you slap on it, it’s just another way to hate.
I guess what makes me sad is I get the feeling she is apologizing for portraying a "bad" type of girl gamer. Saying that she wanted to leave gender out of the equation is just sad. There should be no objection to using the label "gamer girl" any more than there should be objection to a girl who games. Instead of being angry at the blatant misogyny of those ignorant assholes who hate on the stereotype, as a means to hate on women in general and drive them from "their" domain, she is sorry for being part of the problem itself. She isn't part of the problem at all.

It is just so fucking sad to see someone who I think has done a great deal for the public perception of girl geek to be questioning her own place. Fuck the gender police and all of those asses who try to tell women who or what they are allowed to be, allowed to call themselves, and try to force us to question who we are.
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  #123  
Old 06-13-2012, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by Demi
The article was focusing more on women as a consumer block and I just don't see that as the vehicle for change that the author did.
I have gotten lost and have no idea which article you are referring to now, but I have some stuff to say anyway.

The consumer block can be a vehicle for change, at least when discussing products that are sold to consumers. Obviously, in the case of the open source and maker communities, and in the gamer or user communities themselves, it's a different story. But on the purchasing side of things, which is what advertisers are trying to target? Yeah.

There are a bunch of us that aren't gabba gabba one of us, call us casuals or soccer moms or mainstream or whatever, and we want useful gadgets and we like entertaining pastimes and stuff too, and we buy a lot of gifts, and often make the majority of household purchases- including expensive products like game consoles and subscriptions - but many of us fail to see that we are welcome to open that particular clubhouse door.

It's really hard to make informed purchasing decisions when we feel alienated and ignored due to being a woman, or being a casual, or being a general derper trying to buy a decent gift for our geek loved one, so we'll go to whoever caters to us and doesn't make us feel like idiots who can't handle anything more than one of those phones with 4 huge buttons for old people, even if there is no education or information being passed along and we stay derpy.

We can change the world because some of us will smack others upside the head for saying "Tits or GTFO" and shit on electronics we purchased ;)

Oh and BTW, thanks, Kiddo will never have XBox Live or play an MMORPG in my house if what I've been reading is the prevailing gaming culture. Can you turn that open communications from any old asshole shit off or is it a game requirement?

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  #124  
Old 06-13-2012, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Oh and BTW, thanks, Kiddo will never have XBox Live or play an MMORPG in my house if what I've been reading is the prevailing gaming culture. Can you turn that open communications from any old asshole shit off or is it a game requirement?
I have to defend MMOs, MrsShea. In my ten years of playing various large scale online games I've never witnessed the horror(s) you would read about in various places. But there is the caveat that I'm good and lucky at avoiding or ignoring stupid shits being stupid online. The odds of Kiddo witnessing something you wouldn't want him to see is still pretty high as most people playing aren't always going to think a young bort will be reading the words they type. But still, it's entirely possible for young folk to play and not be a witness, much less a target of, abuse or harassment in game.
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  #125  
Old 06-13-2012, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Springtime for Geek Girls?

I'm not all that overprotective, but he's such a sensitive kid and really environmentally adaptive and has no filters in either direction. I swear he just absorbs whatever is going on and amplifies it back out. If he was immersed in a lot of stupid shits being stupid I would know because I would hear the stupid shit coming right back out his mouth. Now, by the time he's old enough for the graphic violence, he may outgrow this trait.

I am glad to know it's not ubiquitous...but I still wonder if communications can be controlled?

Also, have you ever, as a speriment, made a female character with a ladyname?

Last edited by LadyShea; 06-13-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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