No Life

[Sweetie]

That's kinda funny though, a family I knew just picked up and moved to Texas a few years ago because the pay for nursing was so much better, they just bring in cash so they just picked up and moved.

I would say though, that whether or not you care about other humans this day or that day doesn't change the fact that it's healthy or necessary for human beings to be doing something. You don't have to feel like helping people to become a nurse, you get paid big money to do it, you might just have to have an interest in well, making good money.

Exercise is always good of course, just FYI. I find that a healthy mind is often dependent upon a healthy body. I remember I was so pissed at this girl in my class, was great at everything, diving, gymnastics, basketball and volley ball and had excellent grades and I bitched about it to my Mom, she said of course there is some connection between a healthier body and a healthier mind and your overall well being.

[Sweetie]

All I know is that anything I would want to do on the business end, finance, accounting, computers, secretarial work, maybe even a lawyer I could do without question, I'd just have to get some schooling in, but fuck that. It wouldn't be good for me to sit behind a fricken desk all day, I'd rather make less money and be healthier. I'm leaning toward psychology at present.

[Shake]

Awright, I got about two pages into this thread and I think I've seen all I need to put in my 2¢. (I'll probably go back and read the rest later.)

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I keep thinking I'll end up working in the computer field again, despite the fact that I'd rather not set foot inside a business office for the rest of my life.

Oddly I haven't been tremendously depressed or anxious overall for the last couple of months, despite having spent most of my life chronically depressed and most of the last few years having frequent panic attacks and generalized anxiety. Have you caught on yet that I'm just rambling pretty much stream of consciousness here? I hope you're not offended by the lack of a point. The title of the thread is "No Life", after all. What did you expect? Entertainment?

... <and then in a later post> ...

And yeah, all of my "professional" experience (8 years or so) is in the computer networking field, but I'm not really an IT guy anymore. I haven't had a real job in 3 or 4 years now, and I don't think I even want one. At least not if a cubicle is involved.

Two words: construction work. My motivation for those two words are another set: Office Space.

Besides, if you think about it, sure it can be repetitive, but there are lots of different things to learn in such a field. So, as go from project to project, you'll be doing different things and learning about them. Also, you get the satisfaction of doing something tangible that you can show others.

"See that?" you'll say. "I built that."

Your friends will be impressed. Well, I would anyways. Or, I always thought the opposite -- demolition, that is -- would be pretty cool!

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by seebs

It depends a lot. One thing is, really good technical writers are moderately rare. In particular, there's a lot of good technicians who can write a little, and a lot of good writers who understand a little tech, but someone who can, say, write a real article about kernel debugging? Not so many of those.

I'm actually doing pretty much nothing but technical writing right now, and I really enjoy it. I would probably hate an office job of it, but... As piece work, it's excellent, especially if you're fast. My theoretical pay rate for actual time spent working is probably around $500/hour, although it's hard to get much work... I can get more if I'm willing to take less glorious work, such as editing. (And technical editing can be a very challenging job, believe me.)

So, my kneejerk reaction there was, "Yeah, but that's not technical writing!"

But, of course, it is. In fact, it sounds like what you're doing is at least passingly similar to what I do by choice (when I'm working, which isn't much lately).

The way I'm definining 'technical writing' is primarily in terms of job title. At least in these parts, and at least in the industries I mostly work in, jobs called "Technical Writer" are user manual-writing jobs, with forays into formatting technical documents. Technical writers don't write white papers, but maybe they edit them. They don't establish standards, but write down what someone else tells them.

So, I'm thinking, "When was doing wriring white papers and articles and stuff, what was I called?" and I can't remember. I don't usually have a title when I'm doing freelance or even contract work. I did that kind of thing, peripherally, as an Information Architect, but it was a sideline. I've been a "Systems Engineer" a couple of times, but the term was almost meaningless as it was applied in those cases. I was something like the "Lead Technical Marketing Director" or something once. I've had to make up my own titles at least twice. Sometimes, bigger companies will have a catchall term with "information development" in it, but that's just crazy sounding to me. I can't imagine what that's supposed to mean. I see it a lot, though. No wonder people think I'm evasive when they ask me what I do. I don't know what to call it. To find the jobs I look for, I have to look for about seventy bajillion different keywords and just eyeball them. If they're CALLED "technical writer," though, they get culled.

But you're right, goddammit. A lot of that stuff is technical writing.

So, my initial reaction was that maybe I just have the PTSD about the term 'technical writing,' but that's not entirely it. The jobs called "technical writer," again, at least in the industries I'm familiar with, and in my area, are pretty consistently just translating jobs. Translating system specs to user guides, translating requirements to marketing documents, looking at a prototype and writing down what it does, etc., and rewriting and reformatting information that other people have provided you. It's basically just taking something someone else in the company gives you and prettying it up.

The other kind, which I still do (again, when I'm working, which is not now) involves broader, more conceptual stuff, and more often than not, it's just a part of an overall job description, at least as a fulltime thing. It's more like you're creating the information yourself than you are just rewording something someone else has developed.

In short, you have an excellent point. Technical writing does not, in and of itself, suck. Some of it is fun and challenging and interesting, much of it pays well and can be done relatively autonomously. The job title "Technical Writer," though, usually just means "Everybody's Bitch."

As such, I still warn vm to avoid anything CALLED "Technical writing." But by all means, he should look into "technical marketing information systems architecture development engineering" related programs and activities.

And, of course, uh, indexing. (I rarely resort to emoticons, but in this case, I feel as though I have little choice.)

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

sometimes I really want to help people and sometimes I don't give a shit.

True for many of us.

I often want to help people, until I find out how hard they make it.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by JoeP

True for many of us.

I often want to help people, until I find out how hard they make it.

No kidding, hey? There's that expression too, "No good deed goes unpunished."

That's why I don't think it's about helping others but about helping yourself which is usually of primary concern to most, an adequate if selfish motivation, but then they all are selfish motivations.

I knew this guy and he so needed a friend, but needing a friend meant long-term needing validation, hand-holding, motivating, doing his thinking and intellectual work/research for him and an unexhaustable amount of emotional energy from me. I just don't have alot of emotional energy to share and if I help someone, it is only as a hand up to get them to the point so that they can help themselves. I had to gently cut the cord before I let him drain me completely which is just self-protection, and a little cruel, but what else is one to do? It was a "look what I got myself into this time," kinda thing and I'm still not sure whether me in his life as a friend ended up being more productive than it was damaging, but I have to try and can only do what I think is right at any given time. Either way though, it is good for me to be a helpful and giving person and I know it, that experience didn't change that, I just know when the good part of it starts to become harmful and I try to stay within those limits though sometimes those limits aren't definable, it's a gamble.

[seebs]

Note that I don't really object to the prettying-stuff-up work, if I can get it. As long as people aren't asses about it. I was lucky; I did this with one of the best managers ever. Great guy. Doubled the productivity of an entire department, not by trying to push us to work, but by keeping the company off our backs so we could.

[Desert Dweller]

Hmm where to start...HelenM I enjoyed the contradictions in your post. e.g

Their value doesn't come from the doing

or

that happiness which is conditioned on external things we can't control can be fleeting and unreliable. Nevertheless I don't think anyone finds happiness by just 'being'.

But i don't want to knock what you've said. You spoke from the 'normal' 'commonsense' point of view. Also you spoke from within a culture which is governed by a 'Prodestant work - ethic' so it would be very difficult to know what's outside of that.
My point was that VM IS unemployed at present, for last 3 years. Now he can do what most do in this circumstance which is to yield to adictive tendencies and loose touch with ordinary life; or he can use the time to really check out how much he knows/likes/approves of/ himself. Let me assure you that no one on their deathbed says "I wish I'd spent more time working".
It's a unique opportunity to achieve what people who work all their life never have. The sheer incidence of depression in the west (UN claims it will soon be the second biggest medical problem) is an indicator that people do not know themselves deeply, do not approve of themselves deeply.

I want to respond to your statement

I think you'd be happier providing for yourself than living off someone else's money. It doesn't feel good to be dependent on others when we don't have to be.

Firstly Helen I have absolutely no problem taking the dole and I don't see it as other peoples' money...it is my human right to have income. I have degrees in humanities and science plus some post grad certificates. I have a permanent grading in martial arts and taught them for a long time. I am not a lazy or stupid person. It is the fault of the economy that my efforts to gain a job were in vain. There are a lot of men like me...out of the workforce and no chance of getting back in. So I have no qualms about taking what is my right.
What these years have taught me is that identification with 'doing' is short-lived and identificatio with 'being' is far more valuable.

VM wrote

My career deliberations have always been purely about what I want and need as an individual, not what society needs. I'm glad onthedole is here to affirm that such a selfish view isn't an exclusively American phenomenon.

Firstly VM I don't understand how you separate yourself from society; if it's good for you then it's good for the society (talking legal activites here) Secondly,'selfish' is not just a negative state because if you can't learn to satisy yourself then you'll never satisfy anyone else. If you can't like/love yourself then you'll not love anyone else. In a sense unless we also learn to be 'selfish' we'll get nowhere because it all starts and ends with our self. I'm not saying don't think of others, rather realise while you have the opportunity, that you also have to please yourself or you'll live a false life trying to please others. Sweetie came close when she said

That's why I don't think it's about helping others but about helping yourself which is usually of primary concern to most, an adequate if selfish motivation, but then they all are selfish motivations.

So we're not taliing about the greedy person who takes everything for him/her self..ie the normal meaning of selfish...we're talking about trully giving to yourself so that you are able to contribute to others. That's why you said

sometimes I really want to help people and sometimes I don't give a shit.

I suggest you don't give at shit at those times, about yourself!

Conclusion: would I prefer to express myself in work. yes. Is it my doing that the system doesn't want people of my age? No. Is living without work and income easy...hell no, it is the most difficult thing I could imagine however the rewards ultimately are great because one either gives in or gains a self-knowledge which would never have been gained otherwise.
Do I think the system which wasted my working capacity is stupid? Yes.
So VM use the time wisely...you may not get it again.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by onthedole

Hmm where to start...HelenM I enjoyed the contradictions in your post. e.g

or

Please explain what the contradictions are rather than simply asserting there are some.

But i don't want to knock what you've said. You spoke from the 'normal' 'commonsense' point of view. Also you spoke from within a culture which is governed by a 'Prodestant work - ethic' so it would be very difficult to know what's outside of that.

I spoke from my experience (and the experience of others), which is that people who do things feel more fulfilled. I wasn't simply repeating some dogma of my culture.

[quote]

My point was that VM IS unemployed at present, for last 3 years. Now he can do what most do in this circumstance which is to yield to adictive tendencies and loose touch with ordinary life; or he can use the time to really check out how much he knows/likes/approves of/ himself. Let me assure you that no one on their deathbed says "I wish I'd spent more time working".

I'm sure a lot of people have regrets about how they spent their time; they may not say they wish they'd worked more, per se, but they may wish they had done certain things they didn't take time to do. Some of those may be considered 'work'.

It's a unique opportunity to achieve what people who work all their life never have. The sheer incidence of depression in the west (UN claims it will soon be the second biggest medical problem) is an indicator that people do not know themselves deeply, do not approve of themselves deeply.

See, I think that can lead people in the wrong direction. Depressed people can be helped by being distracted from thinking about themselves and one way of doing that is for them to get involved and busy doing things that they find fulfilling. More introspection doesn't achieve that; it merely postpones it.

I want to respond to your statement

Firstly Helen I have absolutely no problem taking the dole and I don't see it as other peoples' money...it is my human right to have income. I have degrees in humanities and science plus some post grad certificates. I have a permanent grading in martial arts and taught them for a long time. I am not a lazy or stupid person. It is the fault of the economy that my efforts to gain a job were in vain. There are a lot of men like me...out of the workforce and no chance of getting back in. So I have no qualms about taking what is my right.

If you think it's your right then...so be it. You say you tried to look for work and couldn't find any and I have no basis for not believing you.

What these years have taught me is that identification with 'doing' is short-lived and identification with 'being' is far more valuable.

I don't think you understand me if you think I'm saying people should 'identify' with 'doing' as if their value is in the doing. I'm not; rather, I'm saying that doing helps people be happy - in my opinion and experience.

Helen

[godfry n. glad]

I'd say I do in order to be comfortably. If I didn't do in exchange for remuneration, then I'd be somebody else's burden. I'd rather do and become self-sufficient rather than rely on the kindness of friends and family. But that's just being me.

As for the dole, well...I dunno. I hated it. But I'm one of those who suffers from Protestant work ethic. I like to be busy. Involved.

Besides, who says that being and doing have to be mutually exclusive? Why can't one be while doing? Or do while being?

godfry


Hey! I ordered a cheeseburger! ~ Gary Larson

[Desert Dweller]

Hello Helen,
thank you for responding.
May I take your opening par

I don't see how one person becoming happy with their being contributes directly to 'modern life'. Indirectly it may lead to a tremendous contribution because happy people behave differently from unhappy ones.

For me the contradiction lies: in the first sentence happiness doesn't contribure to moden life. Then in the second sentence it does contribure, althougth indirectly. (I don't think I intended any distinction between directly and indirectly)

first of all let me explain that I am not a 'normal' person. 14 years of unemploymrnt has seen to that. Right now I am home, 100 acres of rainforest, no other houses in sight. 3000' below is a little town of about 1000 people.
In short I am in isolation. I have lived 'in nature' for about a decade.

I agree with what you are saying. It is generally true that people DO TEND to be happier when they are occupied. The Devil and idle hands ....
I want to support your view for a moment. Your comments are kind, caring and sensible (ie fit the contemporary society).
Contemporary society has many invisible assumptions: defintion of 'work', what is praised and what is not (e.g. it appears that 'making it financially' is very valued in the USA and becoming unemployed is not.)

Now for a moment I ask you to step mentally out of that framework.
ViscousMemories and I ARE unemployed. I'll speak for myself, as I've had longer than VM to reflect on 'NO LIFE", the theme of our thread.

I went through the stages: stage one - new flash CV, expensively produced applications, delivered in plastic outer sheet....apply apply apply...
Stage 2 Deal with emotion effect of being ignored (most didn't even respond) or being rejected.
State 3 bounced...I gained a new impetus...retrained, got a masters degree...completed a commercial course in writing. Back to applications...more careful this time, further refinement of CV...better targeting.....
Stage 4 is like 2 but heavier this time. I accepted that the data produced by the relevant agencies was right. Men over 40 are not employed when a young person of 20 or, the job has been broken into P/T work (casual is cheaper for the employer, no sick leave, superannuation, or holiday pay) and thus it tends to go to women.
Stage 5 was despair for me. I couldn't have felt more useless if I tried. The reality than a male commits suicide ,in our nation of 20 m, almost everyday- it's about 6 a week for men and four times lower for women).
Stage 6 I was still alive...I couldn't just not be there....by now the idea of a conventional job is impossible. I was enemployable in the new system. For each position created there are a minimum of 30 applications. Anyway I wouldn't want to be engaged in a bank, or macdonalds, or a phone factory (call centre). I would not want to advance the cause of patriachy at all ... so all the male centres of power were out (church, law, military, government/administration, physics labs, ...)
Stage 7 I worked for 10 years as a volunteer...mostly mens business, getting to experience the emergence of a mens' movement...oh so fragile yet...then it wasn't possible to continue because it costs money to volunteer (transport, clothing, lunch)
stage 8....was for me all about reflection. one morning I remember waking up, going onto my little verandah viewing the trees and the mountain, and asking myself what would happen if I jsut sat there all day? (you need to understand that learning to live with nothing you have to do every day is quite a trip!) Suddenly it was evening and I felt so good in everything...it was a wonderful stage to unhabit. So I did that for quite a while. meanwhile my kids grew up and the rest of my former savings had gone on a decade's worth of kids cost (may daugher graduated and now is a arts editor for a big mag; and my son plays soccer, about to go to England for assesement, coaching...he's got one year to go in school)

I suspect I am about stage 9 now. I my twenties I wanted to change the world. I my thirtes i wanted to change society. In my 40s I became unemployed (my last job BTW was as State Manager of large Corp..new car, amex card for lunches, underground parking in the city, an office which is the original Men's Club in Sydney. Built in 1880-81 it is a three storey Italianate building, fire palaces in each room, 6 ' paintings, cavouisiere, cognac,cigars, polished sideboards, deep pile carpet) and during my 50s I realise how very difficult it is to change myself!
As I am time rich I get to at least take serious regard to that proposition- changing myself. This involves years of critical viewing of the assumptions I was accepting.

Perhaps you see the predicament. Many things change. I once had a house and the whole catastrope... I had lots to defend. So competitive...the business I was in.
Now I own nothing and I have nothing to defend. I can't be manipulated by threat of loss of..... I can say and be how I choose because there is nothing anyone can take away from me.

For me this is reality. I won't tell you the stats of unemployment...it's much deeper than anyone would imagine, and I haven't got the emotional energy to have all the employed people reading this post go through the predicable refutations (anyone can get work if they try hard enought....)
I have to deal with it. ViscousMemories is having to deal with it.

What would you suggest? I found that personal liberation is the most important thing to me. I seek to know myself so that there are no more surprises...I know all the little, dark, long-rooted neuroses within myself...

I am like a primitive person. They spend up to 90% of the day in ritual. For me being here online is like that. A ritual I can participate in because I am time rich. I suspect I see a lot of things more clearly, simply because I've clambered out of the valleys of work and achievement, to the slopes with a wider, more embrasing view. I have no vested interests left...(not true as there are emotional ones) ...in the outside world. It does what it does.

Let me know if you now get that I wasn't picking on you (contradictions etc)
and was addressing VM, who right now is unemployed and I have the impressioin is in his late 20s, still young. This time for him can be terrible or liberating so I wante to speak for the less spoken of perspective.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by onthedole

Hello Helen,
thank you for responding.
May I take your opening par

For me the contradiction lies: in the first sentence happiness doesn't contribure to moden life. Then in the second sentence it does contribure, althougth indirectly.

There's no contradiction: I said, it doesn't contribute directly; it may contribute indirectly. You seem to have missed the word 'directly' in my first sentence.

(I don't think I intended any distinction between directly and indirectly)

Perhaps not. To me it's an important distinction.

first of all let me explain that I am not a 'normal' person. 14 years of unemploymrnt has seen to that. Right now I am home, 100 acres of rainforest, no other houses in sight. 3000' below is a little town of about 1000 people.
In short I am in isolation. I have lived 'in nature' for about a decade.

I agree with what you are saying. It is generally true that people DO TEND to be happier when they are occupied. The Devil and idle hands ....
I want to support your view for a moment. Your comments are kind, caring and sensible (ie fit the contemporary society).
Contemporary society has many invisible assumptions: defintion of 'work', what is praised and what is not (e.g. it appears that 'making it financially' is very valued in the USA and becoming unemployed is not.)

Now for a moment I ask you to step mentally out of that framework.
ViscousMemories and I ARE unemployed. I'll speak for myself, as I've had longer than VM to reflect on 'NO LIFE", the theme of our thread.

I went through the stages: stage one - new flash CV, expensively produced applications, delivered in plastic outer sheet....apply apply apply...
Stage 2 Deal with emotion effect of being ignored (most didn't even respond) or being rejected.
State 3 bounced...I gained a new impetus...retrained, got a masters degree...completed a commercial course in writing. Back to applications...more careful this time, further refinement of CV...better targeting.....
Stage 4 is like 2 but heavier this time. I accepted that the data produced by the relevant agencies was right. Men over 40 are not employed when a young person of 20 or, the job has been broken into P/T work (casual is cheaper for the employer, no sick leave, superannuation, or holiday pay) and thus it tends to go to women.
Stage 5 was despair for me. I couldn't have felt more useless if I tried. The reality than a male commits suicide ,in our nation of 20 m, almost everyday- it's about 6 a week for men and four times lower for women).
Stage 6 I was still alive...I couldn't just not be there....by now the idea of a conventional job is impossible. I was enemployable in the new system. For each position created there are a minimum of 30 applications. Anyway I wouldn't want to be engaged in a bank, or macdonalds, or a phone factory (call centre). I would not want to advance the cause of patriachy at all ... so all the male centres of power were out (church, law, military, government/administration, physics labs, ...)
Stage 7 I worked for 10 years as a volunteer...mostly mens business, getting to experience the emergence of a mens' movement...oh so fragile yet...then it wasn't possible to continue because it costs money to volunteer (transport, clothing, lunch)
stage 8....was for me all about reflection. one morning I remember waking up, going onto my little verandah viewing the trees and the mountain, and asking myself what would happen if I jsut sat there all day? (you need to understand that learning to live with nothing you have to do every day is quite a trip!) Suddenly it was evening and I felt so good in everything...it was a wonderful stage to unhabit. So I did that for quite a while. meanwhile my kids grew up and the rest of my former savings had gone on a decade's worth of kids cost (may daugher graduated and now is a arts editor for a big mag; and my son plays soccer, about to go to England for assesement, coaching...he's got one year to go in school)

I suspect I am about stage 9 now. I my twenties I wanted to change the world. I my thirtes i wanted to change society. In my 40s I became unemployed (my last job BTW was as State Manager of large Corp..new car, amex card for lunches, underground parking in the city, an office which is the original Men's Club in Sydney. Built in 1880-81 it is a three storey Italianate building, fire palaces in each room, 6 ' paintings, cavouisiere, cognac,cigars, polished sideboards, deep pile carpet) and during my 50s I realise how very difficult it is to change myself!
As I am time rich I get to at least take serious regard to that proposition- changing myself. This involves years of critical viewing of the assumptions I was accepting.

Perhaps you see the predicament. Many things change. I once had a house and the whole catastrope... I had lots to defend. So competitive...the business I was in.
Now I own nothing and I have nothing to defend. I can't be manipulated by threat of loss of..... I can say and be how I choose because there is nothing anyone can take away from me.

For me this is reality. I won't tell you the stats of unemployment...it's much deeper than anyone would imagine, and I haven't got the emotional energy to have all the employed people reading this post go through the predicable refutations (anyone can get work if they try hard enought....)
I have to deal with it. ViscousMemories is having to deal with it.

What would you suggest?

I couldn't live the way you live so I don't feel that I can relate to you enough to know what to suggest.

(I did read what you shared about your life, but I didn't have any particular comments; that's why I left it as one big quote)

I found that personal liberation is the most important thing to me. I seek to know myself so that there are no more surprises...I know all the little, dark, long-rooted neuroses within myself...

I've come to the conclusion that a quest to 'know myself' is not helpful to me; that it's better for me to live my life and deal with the aspects of myself that surface as I am doing that. A quest to know myself seems too artificial; if I look at myself out of the contexts in which I live I will get a distorted view anyway. And such a quest is largely doomed because I'd be pursuing a moving target; one day I'd decide I was confident, the next, I'd be the opposite. Etc.

I am like a primitive person. They spend up to 90% of the day in ritual. For me being here online is like that. A ritual I can participate in because I am time rich. I suspect I see a lot of things more clearly, simply because I've clambered out of the valleys of work and achievement, to the slopes with a wider, more embrasing view. I have no vested interests left...(not true as there are emotional ones) ...in the outside world. It does what it does.

I think there are many people with jobs who have the ability not to let their self-worth be tied to their job. I think it's possible to gain a better perspective on life and learn about oneself while having a job. I don't think one has to be in your situation to be able to do those things.

Let me know if you now get that I wasn't picking on you (contradictions etc) [/quote]

Ok, I get that you weren't picking on me, but I don't agree that what you quoted as an example of a contradiction actually is a contradiction.

Helen

[Desert Dweller]

Ok you're right...you cannot see any contradiction. Regardless of direct or indirect we were talking about the result which frankly doesn't care a jot.

I don't agree that what you quoted as an example of a contradiction actually is a contradiction.

I'm happy to let others decide.

I couldn't live the way you live

You could if you had to.

I really don't understand why you bothered to repeat my post. A simple reference to it would have sufficed.

A quest to know myself seems too artificial;

You miossed the entire point. One doesn't CHOOSE!

if I look at myself out of the contexts in which I live I will get a distorted view anyway

So deny your own humanity and define yourself by the way you live, and good luck.

I think

This phrase occurs often in your post.
Well I think: pigs can fly; goldfish are made of gold; and nuclear waste is not harmful.

It would help the dialoge if you gave some reasons now and again.

I don't think one has to be in your situation to be able to do those things.

Again yo missed the point...my situation as you put it is not by choice! Once here however I've gone through enough nonsense to start to appreciate the benefits of my way of being. I have nothing to defend, I cannot be manipulated, I am beyond ambition/competition/rat racing....I have an opportunity to discover what the real 'I" wants to express. Being in the rat race prevents all these things from being able to emerge.

Since you ended repeating the same defence

I don't agree that what you quoted as an example of a contradiction actually is a contradiction.

all I can say is why are you so defensive of your position? What mkes you attatched to being right? What might happen if you said; oh yes, I was a bit contradictory...and learned a bit more about yourself.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by onthedole

Ok you're right...you cannot see any contradiction. Regardless of direct or indirect we were talking about the result which frankly doesn't care a jot.

You accused me of being defensive later in your post but aren't you being a little defensive here?

I'm happy to let others decide.

Fine.

You could if you had to.

I can't see a situation where I'd have to isolate myself as much as you seem to; that's what I meant.

I really don't understand why you bothered to repeat my post. A simple reference to it would have sufficed.

I didn't know that at the time. I thought you might think me rude if I didn't post it, like I was ignoring what you wrote. Maybe you thought that anyway.

You miossed the entire point. One doesn't CHOOSE!

I think one does choose that. One can take time for it, or not, even if one doesn't have a paid job.

So deny your own humanity and define yourself by the way you live, and good luck.

Where did I deny my own humanity? Where did I define myself by the way I live? Please explain.

This phrase occurs often in your post.
Well I think: pigs can fly; goldfish are made of gold; and nuclear waste is not harmful.

What's wrong with "I think"? I prefer it to asserting things which may only be my opinion. If you think pigs can fly, goldfish are made of gold and nuclear waste is not harmful then I suggest you do some more research into those matters.

It would help the dialoge if you gave some reasons now and again.

I know I'm happier when I'm involved in things and with people. Is that a reason? What did I not give reasons for that you're looking for reasons for? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Your isolating yourself is a choice.

Then why are you so defensive?

Not necessarily.

What is the point of me saying, yes, I was a bit contradictory, if I don't see that I was? If you showed me a contradiction then I'd admit it. But you didn't. Despite your claim, I'm not so attached to being right that I refuse to admit when I'm wrong.

Helen

[Desert Dweller]

I can't see a situation where I'd have to isolate myself as much as you seem to; that's what I meant.

Yes Helen I understand that. This discussion has a lot to do with perception.
IN many ways I suspect we are in mutually exclusion; like an optical illusion, when you can see one thing you can't see the other.
While I can imagine living conventionally (cosI'v ebeen there) I can see that you have no basis upon which to imagine what my life is like. Nothing wrong with that,it's the way perception is.

You see it as isolation. I see it as living in the bush because that's where I'm most happy; with the birds, the reptiles and warm blooded creatures.

I think one does choose that. One can take time for it, or not, even if one doesn't have a paid job.

Well philosophically I suppose there is an element of choice. To me it's like the choice between drowning and swimming to shore.
In hte event that, say VM's situation goes on into the long term then unless he is wacked out on substances, he won't really have a choice because that's what the mind does.

Where did I deny my own humanity?

That was my error- reread and saw how I misinterpreted

if I look at myself out of the contexts in which I live I will get a distorted view anyway

Excuse me.

I made this post in the light of VM's Opening Post. It is a situation poorly understood and much discriminated against.
I chose to share my situation with VM to demonstrate that 1) Life does go on albeit a rather different one and 2) it can be a very rich time to get to know oneself and find out if one has a sense of happiness with just 'being who they are'. I also suspect that in today's world only a minority of people totally accept themselves. So if VM were to gain ground here he would make a great contribution to his own life and to those he comes into contact with.

Also as a general question it is useful to find out how much we identify with who we findamentally are or with what we do and where we live. It's a subtle excercise, hard inner work with the reward of self-knowledge.

Thanks for your feedback.

[HelenM]

Sorry, I just realized you replied to me - I didn't see it earlier.

Originally Posted by onthedole

I also suspect that in today's world only a minority of people totally accept themselves. So if VM were to gain ground here he would make a great contribution to his own life and to those he comes into contact with.

I think I agree with you conceptually although to me self-acceptance is a confusing term because people with a balanced view of themselves probably have things about themself that they are working to change - i.e. that they don't accept. I think it's the balanced view which is important to aim at more than total acceptance, because total acceptance seems to imply that having goals we haven't attained yet is inappropriate. Yet I think it's very appropriate.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Helen

[viscousmemories]

This has been a lively and interesting thread.

I'll say again just for the record that I really wasn't looking for advice or affirmation. I've done almost nothing but self-exploration for a large part of my life and I know myself quite well. I go through emotional ups and downs but for the most part I'm content with who I am today and I don't fear the future. If there's one thing I know how to do, it's survive.

This really has been an enlightening thread though, on many levels. Thanks folks.