Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > History & Geography

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 08-31-2018, 08:31 PM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMDCCCXV
Images: 2
Default Re: Linguistic miscellany

OH NOW CEP WANTS TO FIGHT TOO :angrychickenmob:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
lisarea (09-01-2018), The Man (08-31-2018)
  #27  
Old 08-31-2018, 10:35 PM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMDCCCX
Images: 11
Default Re: Linguistic miscellany

Start off with a link to the highly useful Language Log: Language Log: Lie or lay? Some disastrously unhelpful guidance

There are a handful of verbs like this in English, with related verbs that clearly have some derivational connection at some point in the past (not always being clear which one is the original form and which is modified). There probably used to be more, but the process for creating these types of pairs doesn't exist in modern English.

Other verbs like this are:

rise-rear/raise (rear* is from Old English, raise comes from Norse, from the same Germanic root)
sit-set
fall-fell (e.g. to fell a tree)

Some have changed meanings or are rarely used this way, but

bite-bait (you can see how "bait" might've originally meant "cause to bite")
drink-drench ("drench" used to mean "to cause to drink" but nowadays it's only used that way specifically to refer to forcing an animal to drink medicine)

Other Germanic languages have similar pairs of words:
English Swedish German 
lielayliggaläggaliegenlegen
sitsetsittasättasitzensetzen
fallfellfallafällafallenfällen
bitebaitbitabetabeißen?
drinkdrenchdrickadränkatrinkentrenken

Like in English the meanings may have shifted or narrowed. Swedish dränka means to drown (transitive) rather than cause to drink or give a drink to. They also have pairs that don't exist in English like brinna and bränna which correspond to "burn" transitive vs. intransitive.

The more common way in English to alternate these types of meanings is simply to use the same verb transitively or intransitively.

For example:

I'm burning the papers.
The papers are burning.

He broke the glass.
The glass broke.

But you can also alternate between completely different verbs (like die-kill or buy-sell).

As for lay vs. lie... Yes, people do not consistently distinguish them. I'd say that the past tense is more likely to be mixed up this way, since the fact that the past of "lie" is "lay" makes it more easily confused. Lots of people use "laid" as the past or past participle of "lie". I definitely have preferences for one or the other for certain uses, especially when not in past tense... "I laid in bed all day" sounds fine, for example, but I'd somewhat prefer "I'm lying in bed" to "laying in bed". And I'd definitely never say "he was lying it on pretty thick."

In fact, using lay-lain sounds almost... old-fashioned? or overly proper? to me. "The dog lay in the shade" or "I've lain in bed too long." I'd probably say "The dog laid in the shade" or "I've laid in bed too long." I suppose you might even hear "lied in bed", but that is very rare based on Google hits. You do actually get more Google hits for "have/has laid in bed" than "have/has lain in bed" though.

Sit and set are also not consistently distinguished by all speakers, but I think this is more dialectal. It seems to me to be more common in the South in the US than elsewhere, and I don't think it varies by tense. I don't think I ever conflate these verbs, by contrast.

*This one looks less similar to the intransitive verb, but change of /z/ (spelled with 's') to /r/ is a sound change that occurred in Germanic in a number of words. This is also the source of the alternations between /z/ and /r/ in conjugations of 'be', 'is'/'was' with /z/ and 'are'/'were' with /r/. Paradigm leveling eliminated these alternations in verbs like "choose" and "freeze", whose Old English ancestors had conjugations with /z/-/r/ alternations.

Last edited by erimir; 08-31-2018 at 11:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
ChuckF (08-31-2018), Ensign Steve (08-31-2018), JoeP (08-31-2018), lisarea (09-01-2018), SR71 (09-01-2018), The Man (08-31-2018)
  #28  
Old 08-31-2018, 11:15 PM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMDCCCXV
Images: 2
Default Re: Linguistic miscellany

Hast thou too long abed lain?
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
lisarea (09-01-2018), The Man (09-01-2018)
  #29  
Old 08-31-2018, 11:46 PM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMDCCCX
Images: 11
Default Re: Linguistic miscellany

Manig morgen hæbbe ic gelegen in bedd oferlice, hit is soþ.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
fragment (09-05-2018), lisarea (09-01-2018), Pan Narrans (09-01-2018), The Man (09-01-2018)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > History & Geography


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.15084 seconds with 14 queries