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09-30-2010, 04:02 AM
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What's Its Job?
What's the point of the book of Job? Why was it written?
The only thing I can figure, is no matter how bad the shit hits the fan in their life, an ancient Hebrew couldn't go up to a religious leader and ask, "Rabbi, what the fuck?" without them being able to read from Job and say, "You complaining sack of shit, look what happened to Job, and he didn't curse Yahweh. You shut your fucking face."
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09-30-2010, 04:29 AM
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ne plus ultraviolet
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Job is straight Old Testament Desert Death Cult God, showing the loving. Having a shitty time? It is because God is testing your faith. Remember, pie in the sky when you die, bad things happen because God wants it that way, and you give up on God and it's Lake of Fire for all eternity.
The other side of it is a lesson about how sunny-day faith is for milk-toast sissies. BELIEVE HARD or go home. And they have a point.
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09-30-2010, 04:42 AM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Hmmm.
I thought Hell was a later invention.
The Hebrews had the concept of Sheol, but there was no negative afterlife. Sheol may have simply been a metaphor for death. Ecclesiastes has verses that basically say when you're dead, you're dead. Your consciousness is done, your body goes into the ground.
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09-30-2010, 09:33 AM
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NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites
BELIEVE HARD or go home.
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I like that. I may even get it tattooed on my penis.
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful.
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09-30-2010, 09:35 AM
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Flipper 11/11
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
The desert is a pretty harsh place. Yet the sun (or God?) doesn't shine any more fiercely there than the oasis next door. Neither can you use this, if you are an oasis dweller, to deny that desert places (or hell?) exist. If there truly is an afterlife, meaning it is something we discover as opposed to contrive (I don't claim to be an expert on ancient Hebrew beliefs), then we should expect to see provisions for either two dispositions (heaven and hell), depending on how we receive the light from heaven/God above.
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die?
Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free!
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09-30-2010, 09:44 AM
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Quality Contributor
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus
The desert is a pretty harsh place. Yet the sun (or God?) doesn't shine any more fiercely there than the oasis next door. Neither can you use this, if you are an oasis dweller, to deny that desert places (or hell?) exist. If there truly is an afterlife, meaning it is something we discover as opposed to contrive (I don't claim to be an expert on ancient Hebrew beliefs), then we should expect to see provisions for either two dispositions (heaven and hell), depending on how we receive the light from heaven/God above.
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Shaka, when the walls fell.
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09-30-2010, 10:04 AM
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Flipper 11/11
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angakuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites
BELIEVE HARD or go home.
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I like that. I may even get it tattooed on my penis.
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Ah yes, the good old serpent in the Garden of Eden. This is why God would have us circumcised, to remind us of the covenant he made with Adam in the Garden of Eden. It does look like the head of a serpent doesn't it? In other cultures the serpent is a symbol of eternity.
It's also why Hera got pissed off at Apollo, for killing Python, her favorite snake in the grass and, why Zeus punished Apollo by making him serve the mortal King Admetus for eight years. Hmm .... wasn't Apollo the god of knowledge? as refers to good and evil, that is. Or, if not, maybe this was the lesson he needed to learn?
Or, I suppose in terms of gods, that could be eight days ... Abraham!
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die?
Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free!
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09-30-2010, 10:48 AM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashmir
What's the point of the book of Job? Why was it written?
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YHWH is a king; you are a peasant. Kings can, and will, do whatever they want, including evil, and you have no right to question it. If you abase yourself to a king, sometimes the king will shower you with a few bobbles. Of course, if you oppose a king, he will simply destroy you.
It looks better on a poster if you have a kitten on a tree or something.
--J.D.
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09-30-2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashmir
The Hebrews had the concept of Sheol, but there was no negative afterlife.
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All went to sheol. Just ask Samuel, a prophet of YHWH. If he cannot get "first class," doubt you smelly revolting lot will.
Of course, to ask him you need to consult a witch, preferably from Endor. . . .
--J.D.
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09-30-2010, 11:02 AM
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Counter
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Utrecht, the Netherlands
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
O HAI
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09-30-2010, 12:28 PM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Which just goes to show how original Lucas is . . . not.
--J.D.
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09-30-2010, 01:07 PM
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Just keep m'nose clean, egg, chips & beans, I'm always full of steam
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: so far out, I'm too far in
Gender: Bender
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Re: What's Its Job?
I didn't know Kurosawa wrote I & II Samuel!
__________________
"Her eyes in certain light were violet, and all her teeth were even. That's a rare, fair feature: even teeth. She smiled to excess, but she chewed with real distinction." - Eleanor of Aquitaine
...........
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09-30-2010, 01:20 PM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Fuck with her not.
--J.D.
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09-30-2010, 02:09 PM
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you're next
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Gender: Bender
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashmir
What's the point of the book of Job? Why was it written?
The only thing I can figure, is no matter how bad the shit hits the fan in their life, an ancient Hebrew couldn't go up to a religious leader and ask, "Rabbi, what the fuck?" without them being able to read from Job and say, "You complaining sack of shit, look what happened to Job, and he didn't curse Yahweh. You shut your fucking face."
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there are people like that. there are people that live tortuous lives we couldn't even imagine that don't curse god. there are Jobs suffering all over the place, still grateful to be alive.
crazy buggers. are some suggesting they revolt against this unfair god?
what god?
They took our Jerbs!
__________________
paranoid fringe dweller
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09-30-2010, 02:26 PM
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ne'er-do-well
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Life was harder back then. Job reminds people that as hard as things get, it could be a whole lot worse. Don't question your lot in life, and don't you dare think that you know better than the imaginary friend that created you.
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09-30-2010, 03:18 PM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Because he will kill you.
--J.D.
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09-30-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quality Contributor
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOZAZ
there are Jobs suffering all over the place, still grateful to be alive.
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09-30-2010, 05:16 PM
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It's however you interpret the question...
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: On A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream
Gender: Bender
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Re: What's Its Job?
Doc X, what the fuck are bobbles?
__________________
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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09-30-2010, 05:38 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: What's Its Job?
They're like baubles, spelled out by a kindergartner.
Or the fuzzy ball on top of a knit cap.
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10-01-2010, 03:55 AM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor X
YHWH is a king; you are a peasant. Kings can, and will, do whatever they want, including evil, and you have no right to question it. If you abase yourself to a king, sometimes the king will shower you with a few bobbles. Of course, if you oppose a king, he will simply destroy you.
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But Yahweh isn't the one doing the evil, he's the one allowing it to happen (which I tend to think is morally worse).
He's trying to win a bet with Satan.*
It's as if a woman's husband had a conversation with another man about how faithful his wife is, that she would stick with him no matter what, and Man #2 said, "Oh, yeah? Then let me rape her while you watch," and the husband consented.
Isn't Yahweh also supposed to be loving and just, or was this before that thinking entered into Jewish theology? Or, perhaps no one cared to point out the contradiction, because they valued their life too much.
What does Yahweh, creator of everything, care his evil creation thinks? And how isn't He worse than Satan?
The Old Testament, undermining Christian theology for two thousand years.
*So, Yahweh is not only listening to who will become the Ultimate Evil in Christianity, and modifying his behavior according to Satan's whims, but He's gambling** as well (Satan can't believe Yahweh is omniscient and incapable of lying, otherwise he wouldn't have made the bet. But if Yahweh doesn't have those traits, how's He God? Surely Satan must know God's traits.)
**Granted, this is a trivial sin compared to allowing a man to be tortured.
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10-01-2010, 04:20 AM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashmir
But Yahweh isn't the one doing the evil, he's the one allowing it to happen (which I tend to think is morally worse).
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He makes it happen. He "does evil." Not really worth the semantics as you seem to concede.
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He's trying to win a bet with Satan.*
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It is not a bet: no wager is placed. The Prosecutor--השטן--merely states that Job will curse YHWH if his toys are removed. Popular understanding seems to forget that: there is no "if I win I get Luxemborough" or something like that. The satan is doing his job--testing/prosecuting.
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Isn't Yahweh also supposed to be loving and just, . . .
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Where is he ever that in the biblical texts? Have you not heard?
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1 Sam 15:3: "Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy (ḥrm) all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
Ezek 20:25-26: "I [YHWH.--Ed.], in turn, gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know I am YHWH."
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"Lovable" and "just" are descriptors that do not fit YHWH. One of the many reasons the Hebrew and Christian Gnostic groups contended that YHWH was an evil demiurge--the blind Samael.
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or was this before that thinking entered into Jewish theology? Or, perhaps no one cared to point out the contradiction, because they valued their life too much.
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Or perhaps such considerations are modern conventions?
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What does Yahweh, creator of everything,
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He is not the "creator of everything." Even the J and P creation myths are more reorderings than creations, and the earlier tradition--preserved in Deuteronomy and in extra-biblical texts--has El as the creator deity--the Big Daddy as it were.
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. . . care his evil creation thinks? And how isn't He worse than Satan?
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There is no evidence that the satan is created by YHWH. He is one of the "sons of the gods" and a member of the Heavenly Council. Nice guy with a job to do so show some sympathy . . . and restraint.
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The Old Testament, undermining Christian theology for two thousand years.
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Christian theology has been undermining itself for two thousand years. Really does not need the HB to do that.
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*So, Yahweh is not only listening to who will become the Ultimate Evil in Christianity,
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The Jews? The Romans? Depends on whom you ask and when but "the satan" then "Satan" is not the Ultimate Evil [Tm.--Ed.] the NT--not even in Revelation when you think about it. It is those who disagree and reject the individual authors.
Quote:
(Satan can't believe Yahweh is omniscient and incapable of lying, otherwise he wouldn't have made the bet. But if Yahweh doesn't have those traits, how's He God? Surely Satan must know God's traits.)
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YHWH is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, in the HB. He lies to Adam among others, he lies to David--directly orders him to break a rule, then punishes him for breaking that rule, gets beaten by another god, has a greater god give him Israel, and cannot handle iron chariots! You are retrojecting modern understanding of gods back into earlier traditions and myths. Do not assume that they are consistent either.
Quote:
**Granted, this is a trivial sin compared to allowing a man to be tortured.
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For the Job author, such is not a "sin." There is no "sin." You simply obey a king. If you do not, you get crushed. Might makes right.
--J.D.
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10-01-2010, 03:02 PM
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Flipper 11/11
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor X
YHWH is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, in the HB. He lies to Adam among others, he lies to David--directly orders him to break a rule, then punishes him for breaking that rule, gets beaten by another god, has a greater god give him Israel, and cannot handle iron chariots! You are retrojecting modern understanding of gods back into earlier traditions and myths. Do not assume that they are consistent either.
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So, just about every version of "God" is anthropomorphized? How does it make Him any less omniscient or omnipotent? This would seem more the matter of a subjective account versus objective account. It still doesn't change the facts about what IT is, just the interpretation of the facts.
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die?
Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free!
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10-01-2010, 04:38 PM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor X
YHWH is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, in the HB. He lies to Adam among others, he lies to David--directly orders him to break a rule, then punishes him for breaking that rule, gets beaten by another god, has a greater god give him Israel, and cannot handle iron chariots! You are retrojecting modern understanding of gods back into earlier traditions and myths. Do not assume that they are consistent either.
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So, just about every version of "God" is anthropomorphized? How does it make Him any less omniscient or omnipotent? This would seem more the matter of a subjective account versus objective account. It still doesn't change the facts about what IT is, just the interpretation of the facts.
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Very interesting comment coming from someone that thinks that it is all in your mind.
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10-02-2010, 05:00 PM
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Flipper 11/11
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
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Re: What's Its Job?
This mind is a portal to a another dimension, a dimension that gives rise to both the mind and the physical world. So no, it isn't matter of saying it's all in the mind but, which comes first. If the mind were wholly equivocal to a brain fart, which it's not, you would be correct.
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die?
Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free!
Last edited by Iacchus; 10-02-2010 at 07:03 PM.
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10-02-2010, 08:15 PM
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Re: What's Its Job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus
This mind is a portal to a another dimension, a dimension that gives rise to both the mind and the physical world.
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I knew it! You live in the Twilight Zone.
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