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View Poll Results: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?
Yes, it is OK. 9 30.00%
Is it OK not to punch a Nazi in the head? 9 30.00%
It's OK, but I prefer the genitals or solar plexus. 15 50.00%
Violence is never the answer, unless the question is some kind of Nazi shit. 14 46.67%
No, it is awesome. 10 33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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  #251  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

I watched the whole thing waiting for the Nazi part, and it never came.
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  #252  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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#ABirdNeedsTwoWings


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#ConfusedButIntrigued
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  #253  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
I watched the whole thing waiting for the Nazi part, and it never came.

:notes: I beg your pardon/I never promised you a Nazi hardon :notes:
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  #254  
Old 07-10-2018, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
What specifically should I listen to?
You can listen to as little or as much as you want, dude. But if you want to find fault with some of it, you should listen to that particularly carefully in case it doesn't go how you thought it would go.

By which I mean what idea stands out as reasonable ...?

Jones says that liberals think they believe that those who put their values over their money are noble people and not idiots. Yet we (some of us) call working class white republicans "stupid" for voting against their economic interest.

I think that's a thing. I think Jones has a point.
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  #255  
Old 07-10-2018, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

I'd be happy to call those republicans noble as well, if they were voting against their own monetary interests to give more to people that have less than them, or for more equality. Instead, they are almost always voting against their own monetary interests to give more money to the insanely wealthy, or reduce rights for women/people of colour/LGBTQ people. So yeah, we call one noble and one stupid. That seems perfectly reasonable.

I didn't watch the video, so maybe there is more to his point than something that looks similar on the surface, but is quite different?
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  #256  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

The values that working-class whites would be putting over the economic self-interests by voting Republican or particularly for Trump* are mostly not noble though.

-white supremacy
-religious bigotry against LGBT people and/or non-Christians
-patriarchy/misogyny, particularly as expressed through anti-abortion politics, although there are other elements like opposition to addressing the pay gap or sexual harassment, etc. They have substantive although mostly not rhetorical** opposition to #metoo. Donald Trump, however, is a blatant misogynist.

I can grant that there are some anti-abortion folks who aren't motivated by misogyny. The thing is, if you're not concerned with controlling women but simply in reducing abortion, then you wouldn't oppose sex ed and contraception (which both reduce unwanted pregnancy and therefore abortions), you wouldn't oppose more generous welfare spending on mothers and children or mandatory paid family and sick leave (which reduce the motivation for abortion), etc. If you're not concerned with moralizing and recognize that making it illegal doesn't simply stop it, the Democratic platform is better for reducing abortion.

There are also some working-class Republicans who are sincerely motivated by libertarian economic ideas. However, they aren't a very large cross-section, for one. For another, political science/sociological studies have found a significant negative correlation between racist beliefs and support for social welfare spending, so most of them really are just motivated by racism. But sure, there are some who aren't racist but do really believe in limited government and all that.

I still don't see how they're noble or not idiotic though. Working-class folks who view themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" who therefore support policies that benefit the rich are... still dumb.

*If, however, they thought they were putting their economic self-interests first by voting for Trump, well, then they are idiots. Trump hasn't done anything for working people... sabotaging healthcare, tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, undoing Obama DoL overtime reforms, haphazard trade war... none of these are good for working people, and all were predictable as long as you recognized Trump as a liar. And my experience is that the only reason you wouldn't recognize Trump as particularly dishonest is if you think that his racism shows he's willing to tell the truth where others aren't (i.e. Hillary Clinton knows Trump's right about his racism but she lies in order to win the votes of non-whites).

**Donald Trump is willing to explicitly mock #metoo, but most other prominent Republicans prefer to give it lip service, particularly to attack liberal figures who have been accused/exposed, while whenever one of theirs is accused it often turns out "in this case, they're all lying" or "we need to see more evidence and not jump to conclusions"
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  #257  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
You can listen to as little or as much as you want, dude. But if you want to find fault with some of it, you should listen to that particularly carefully in case it doesn't go how you thought it would go.
Look, I'm tired of generic internet contrarians, so when I see a 15 minute controversial video posted without comment I immediately side eye it as someone waiting for someone to reply just so they can so, "no, I didn't mean that!" or other dumbass we are all 15 again "gotcha" bullshit. As an adult assume you can write a few lines to provide context for your post.

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Jones says that liberals think they believe that those who put their values over their money are noble people and not idiots. Yet we (some of us) call working class white republicans "stupid" for voting against their economic interest.
Sure and with short enough sentences and no details it allows someone to say 'both sides are equal.'

Another false equivalency to make it appear "both sides are the same" since apparently putting values over *my* money is the same as voting against economic interest, which is just stupid. Back when I lived in republican fire country many altruistic liberals would vote to give their money away, to the local fire department. What values voters! am I right? No, of course not, they just didn't want their town to burn down. Many old republicans voted in favor of keeping their hoard to themselves, fuck everyone else. Which is a large difference between the two sides, one side sees giving money to anyone outside of their tribe as throwing money away, the other realizes having a functioning society benefits all. A corporation voting to increase its taxes isn't acting out of personal values or altruism but one that realizes investing in the US so that people can actually go out and buy their product is a smart long term investment. It's sad that it would appear 'thinking about the future' is considered going against ones economic interests.

This also suggests that if republicans vote against their economic interest then they must be voting for their values. What values are those, family? nope. Marriage? nope. Children? Nope. Christianity? Nope. Obama's a N** and Hillary's a bitch... yep! Racism and sexism are the top supported republican values.

Then this also assumes republicans actually know they are voting against their economic interest and are choosing to do so on purpose. But the number of coal miners among others, have shown that many republicans thought they were voting in their own economic interests but got tricked.
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  #258  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Jones says that liberals think they believe that those who put their values over their money are noble people and not idiots. Yet we (some of us) call working class white republicans "stupid" for voting against their economic interest.

I think that's a thing. I think Jones has a point.
He does have a point, and I agree with him on that. I've always been a little skeeved when people assume everyone has selfish motives for everything they say and do.

Not that I'm a liberal or a progressive or whatever group he's lecturing to there, but I don't think all conservatives or all Republicans are stupid or evil. I think Trump supporters are, though, because he does not have or represent a defensible moral stance of any sort. He campaigned on a platform that was based on fear, entitlement, and ignorance, and that's what his supporters voted for, whether they realize it or not. I do believe that a lot of them are just plain dumb, but not for voting against their economic interests. They're dumb for voting for Trump, who is liar, a buffoon, and a known con man.

And even Trump supporters are not all ACTUAL NAZIS. The actual Nazis don't have any ideals anyone of us need to try to understand in any deeper sense than an exterminator needs to try to understand the ways of termites.
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  #259  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Look, I'm tired of generic internet contrarians, so when I see a 15 minute controversial video posted without comment I immediately ...
... reach for a bucket of blithely racist invective, it seems.

Look, I get that you think it is a waste of time engaging with me because you I'm going to disagree with you for the sake of it, and yet at the same time you can't give my post a pass because then it'll look like I'm winning some battle or prize you need me to lose or something ... erimir used to think that way too and tried the same shit way back here. (I think he's softened toward me in his old age. I could be wrong)

Sure and with short enough sentences and no details it allows someone to say 'both sides are equal.'

Not sure what your issue is here. Jones is not saying there that both sides are equal. He is saying when liberals judge working-class Republicans as "stupid" because they can be assumed not to realise the GOP agenda will keep them down, that's a double-standard because it isn't applied to wealthy Democrats.

Jones is also not saying there that all Liberal critiques of working-class Republicans are invalid. He is not saying that no working-class Republican is stupid. He is not saying there that their values are equally "noble", whatever that might mean.

He is just saying "Stupid rednecks for voting against their own interests" is a bogus judgement that reflects a intellectual failure on those Liberals who fall into the trap of expressing it.
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  #260  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Look, I get that you think it is a waste of time engaging with me because you I'm going to disagree with you for the sake of it, and yet at the same time you can't give my post a pass because then it'll look like I'm winning some battle or prize you need me to lose or something
That's not it at all. I will happily engage with you but you said nothing, you remained silent. Posting a video with no comment is not being engaging yourself. Did you post to laugh at it? Did you post because there was a good idea in there somewhere? Did you post because you agree with everything in the video? Fucked if I know. You just dropped an cartoon length video and wandered off.

If you would like people to engage with you, you must engage with them. I may in fact watch your video if you provide reason for why I'm watching it and things you're interested in talking about.

Quote:
Not sure what your issue is here. Jones is not saying there that both sides are equal. He is saying when liberals judge working-class Republicans as "stupid" because they can be assumed not to realise the GOP agenda will keep them down, that's a double-standard because it isn't applied to wealthy Democrats.
This is what I mean, by engaging.
I partly agree, it isn't applied to wealthy democrats as much, but it is some. Part of the anti-hillary crowd had a serious issue with her corporate connections and warhawkishness. I think the big difference is while the wealthy dems want to maintain the corporate status quo with a consumer underclass the republicans want the poor dead or dying while hemoraging money and shooting brown folk. Which sounds like hyperbole until you start looking at the programs conservatives are cutting and who they are putting in charge.
In the bay area at least, while the media loves their 'liberal' tech darlings who spout libertarian views, many liberals in the area side eye any of their suggestions and are tired of every little whim of wealthy democrats being treated as genius purely because they aren't as blatantly evil as conservatives.
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  #261  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Look, I get that you think it is a waste of time engaging with me because you I'm going to disagree with you for the sake of it, and yet at the same time you can't give my post a pass because then it'll look like I'm winning some battle or prize you need me to lose or something ... erimir used to think that way too and tried the same shit way back here.
It is very strange that you bring up a perceived slight from almost 10 years ago when you're not even talking to me.
Quote:
(I think he's softened toward me in his old age. I could be wrong)
My opinion of your behavior in those old threads is pretty much the same. I think it's your behavior that has "softened". But the old behaviors still resurface from time to time.

Another instance of the old behavior resurfacing is what prompted this, in another thread:
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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Oh, memories :wish:
Quote:
He is just saying "Stupid rednecks for voting against their own interests" is a bogus judgement that reflects a intellectual failure on those Liberals who fall into the trap of expressing it.
I can agree with this specific statement, but I don't agree with all the things Van Jones said.

Liberals who think that all the white people in Kansas or West Virginia or whatever are just misreading their economic incentives and are being duped, or that racism and such are just tricks that are used against them and not things that they support and get something out of, are misreading the situation.

Du Bois, for example, refers to racism as providing a "public and psychological wage" to white people. Humans are social animals, and having social status over black people is worth something to many white people. It is mostly not monetary benefits, but it is still a benefit.

Now, for various reasons, anti-racists (who are mostly liberals) don't enjoy these benefits and want to end them, and thus see the pursuit of them as irrational.

It probably is that, for many working class white Republican voters, the psychological benefits of white supremacy are less than the material benefits they are giving up by not voting Democratic. But not for all of them. And it's highly dependent on how much psychological pleasure/security/etc. they get from white supremacy. I don't understand that mindset, but I do understand enjoying winning, which I guess is something like that. If it made me feel more like a winner to see black people be poor, I would probably be more inclined to vote for Republicans. The same things would go for other bigotries.

As far as their reasoning on the economic issues, they may view the plutocracy as too entrenched and so be skeptical of the benefits they gain from Democrats. In that case, might as well vote for the racism/sexism/homophobia/etc.

However, misreading the effect of Democratic policies still comes off as stupid or ignorant. We can measure these things, and Democratic policies tend to be better for working people. Even if they can't deliver 100%, this is also largely due to Republican obstruction and sabotage. You can forgive them for ignorance, because our system is set up in a way that obscures which party is responsible for dysfunction, but that's not what Jones is saying about them. I think he would take issue with that characterization.

So while I agree that they're not all being snookered, I don't think Jones would agree with my view of things.

The problem is also when Jones says things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
liberals think they believe that those who put their values over their money are noble people and not idiots. Yet we (some of us) call working class white republicans "stupid" for voting against their economic interest.
The misreading is of liberals. Liberals wouldn't praise a Nazi for forgoing financial benefits because they want to further Nazi goals. Liberals don't praise putting values above personal benefit without taking into account what those values are.

And I've never said that I think all Republicans are idiots who don't understand what they're doing.

It's not an accurate characterization of my views, and it's not accurate for quite a lot of other liberals. It might be for some people, like Thomas Frank though.

I would say Republican voters mostly fall into three categories (which have some subcategories):

-Fools (the folk who thought because Trump was a "good businessman" he would make jobs for them)
-Bigots (whether racists, male chauvinists/misogynists, religious homophobes, etc.) - some of these may recognize or even admit that they're giving up benefits to further these aims. Others are fooling themselves and rationalizing their vote as something other than what it is.
-Greedy and power-hungry. The ones who are already rich and powerful are the true base of the party, the ones that GOP politicians really serve. Some who aren't rich or powerful aspire to be part of the group, but most of those will fail (I count those as fools)

Some of them are being duped. But the latter two groups aren't. Or to the extent that the bigots are, it's more a rationalization because they're unwilling to articulate the true reasons for their support. But in many of those profiles of Trump supporters, the mask slips and the racism is put on display. I also am personally familiar, having grown up mostly in rural North Carolina, that many of those folks will say blatantly racist stuff in certain contexts but not in others. I doubt many of them would say things about nightsticks being "n****r-knockers" or about "you know how wild they are now, just imagine how they'll be if one of them wins" (before Obama's election) to a national reporter.

Last edited by erimir; 07-12-2018 at 04:07 AM.
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  #262  
Old 07-12-2018, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

I guess an anti-antifa bill is pro-fa?

115th CONGRESS, H. R. 6054 - "unmasking antifa" (but not Neo-Nazis, the KKK, or SWAT)
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  #263  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
It is very strange that you bring up a perceived slight from almost 10 years ago when you're not even talking to me. ... My opinion of your behavior in those old threads is pretty much the same. I think it's your behavior that has "softened". But the old behaviors still resurface from time to time.
Not strange at all. I believe that Ari has here made a similar (not identical, but close enough) mistake as you did back then. And I believe the motive that misled him is similar (not identical, but close enough) to the motive that misled you. I think some good may come from drawing his attention to the parallels. You may well feel differently.

I don't believe I have changed at all. My behaviour has changed because my posts here are no longer attacked so frequently, and since you used to be part of that seemingly constant (it felt so to me) barrage, that change in behaviour is at least partly yours. Why the change? I guess because you know me better now than you did then and no longer see me as (for example) a "generic internet contrarian".

I don't agree with all the things Van Jones said.
Hmmm ... I'm not sure I do either, but I haven't listened carefully enough to find anything to disagree with. Also I'm not 'Merkn so I may be missing out on the background knowledge that would generate a cognitive dissonance or two. That's one of the benefits of seeking your feedback (and Ari's, if he can bring himself to give it proper consideration).

I'll add this for now: you follow on with a lengthy analysis of things that, as far as I can tell, Jones doesn't say. As far as I can tell, Jones doesn't argue that it is wrong to disagree with Nazis, or with Trump voters, or even with Republicans. At least he doesn't in this piece; what Jones has said elsewhere and otherwhen is part of the background I may be missing.

All he seems to me to be saying is that not all attacks on the right are well-thought-out, reasonable, honest and constructive. And he gives a few examples of common attacks that he believes aren't.

Now I don't think you want to argue that his over-arching thesis is wrong. (Maybe Ari does want to say that; I'm not sure yet). So I guess you want to argue that some or all of his examples are wrong.

Feel free ...
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:37 PM
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That's one of the benefits of seeking your feedback (and Ari's, if he can bring himself to give it proper consideration).
This whole talking to me thing while not talking to me is cute.

Ok feedback,
In my opinion the Big Think desperately wants to be TED but lacks the money and talent and the few times I've seen them really has the feel of a bunch of mediocre intellectuals who keep patting themselves on the back for how intellectual and amazing they are. This isn't the first time they've acted like the most intellectual thing to do is to sit down and chat with racists because if we can only just find common ground then IDK, racism will be over. The few scientists they have dumb down their stuff to the most basic, pop-sci levels. Maybe they have some good stuff these days but I quickly wrote them off as a pop-sci TED X style production that likes to think about thinking a lot but not do real indepth research.

Oh you mean feedback on the content, not the site, you should be more specific. What parts interested you enough to want feedback?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
In my opinion the Big Think desperately wants to be TED but lacks the money and talent and the few times I've seen them really has the feel of a bunch of mediocre intellectuals who keep patting themselves on the back for how intellectual and amazing they are. This isn't the first time they've acted like the most intellectual thing to do is to sit down and chat with racists because if we can only just find common ground then IDK, racism will be over. The few scientists they have dumb down their stuff to the most basic, pop-sci levels. Maybe they have some good stuff these days but I quickly wrote them off as a pop-sci TED X style production that likes to think about thinking a lot but not do real indepth research.

lol Question-begging ad hominems ftw!
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:19 PM
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lol Question-begging ad hominems ftw!
Lol, this isn't a logic debate, logical fallacies don't apply.
But, so um again, what part do you want feedback on, what parts did you think were interesting?
(All of these things and more would be helpful if you truly wanted a discussion on the topic.)
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

When you are claiming to take issue with Van Jones's ideas, it is fallacious to attack the production values or other failings of the platform he happens to be speaking from. In particular it is fallacious to imply that his ideas are substandard because otherwise he wouldn't be reduced to appearing on that platform.

I'm happy for you to give honest considered feedback on whatever you think Jones is saying in the clip that you believe I should not give too much credence. I'm equally happy for you to fuck right off without another word.

:happywave:
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:03 PM
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In particular it is fallacious to imply that his ideas are substandard because otherwise he wouldn't be reduced to appearing on that platform.
Did I say or imply any of that? No, I did not.

You posted a video and wanted feedback, so I gave you feedback on the video, if you would like feedback on the content of the video, please specify that. The entire point of slamming Big Think was to show that if you don't actually say why you are posting a video or what you want to discuss, I'll just guess, it's not my problem if I can't read your mind about what feedback you want.

It's amazing how much time and back and forth gets saved if you posted your thoughts along with the video instead of expecting us to read your mind or tease it out of you. But ok fine, next time to save time and headache I will just assume you agree with everything in any video you post unless otherwise mentioned. Later I'll watch the full video and see what your views are.
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  #269  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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All he seems to me to be saying is that not all attacks on the right are well-thought-out, reasonable, honest and constructive. And he gives a few examples of common attacks that he believes aren't.
On reflection, that's not all Jones is saying there. He is also saying that one consequence of the ill-thought-out, unreasonable, dishonest and unconstructive attacks on the Right has been increased polarisation of the conflict, contributing to the rise in popularity of the extreme-right and the election of Trump.

That is also debatable.
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  #270  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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In particular it is fallacious to imply that his ideas are substandard because otherwise he wouldn't be reduced to appearing on that platform.
Did I say or imply any of that? No, I did not.
In the context of the thread and my posting of Van Jones's video clip, that was the apparent implication. I concede I was assuming that you were aware of the context you were posting in, and that you weren't consciously veering off-topic to make some point about the dangers of assuming that you wouldn't consciously veer off-topic. My bad!
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  #271  
Old 07-12-2018, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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It is very strange that you bring up a perceived slight from almost 10 years ago when you're not even talking to me. ... My opinion of your behavior in those old threads is pretty much the same. I think it's your behavior that has "softened". But the old behaviors still resurface from time to time.
Not strange at all.
I wasn't questioning the relevance to the point you're trying to make.

The strange part is bringing up a decade-old perceived minor slight with a third-party (who is nonetheless "present" in the room) at all. Remembering it and bringing up precisely the post you wanted either means you spent a lot of time finding it OR you remember a decade-old argument very well. Either of which is strange. Personally, I had forgotten about that thread.
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I'll add this for now: you follow on with a lengthy analysis of things that, as far as I can tell, Jones doesn't say. As far as I can tell, Jones doesn't argue that it is wrong to disagree with Nazis, or with Trump voters, or even with Republicans.
I never said anything that implied Jones thought it was wrong to simply disagree with anyone, Nazi or Republican or whatever else.

Jones was suggesting that there's something hypocritical about praising wealthy liberals for putting principles of helping the poor above their fiscal self-interest but considering working-class Republicans to be idiots when they do the same.

I was agreeing that they're not all idiots (although a not-insignificant portion are), but there's nothing hypocritical about that, because liberals care about what values you are placing above fiscal self-interest.

And then I was also saying that if they're not idiots or ignoramuses, the alternate explanations are rarely particularly praiseworthy (being either motivated by bigotry or greed).

The Republican Party is off the rails, and I think you agree with me on that (and probably so would Jones). It would be far stranger for the supporters of such a corrupt, bigoted, plutocratic party to include many intelligent, informed voters with noble motivations than for most of them to either be fools, ignoramuses, thoughtless followers, or bigots, greedy assholes, etc.

A lot of people would reflexively disagree with this because I'm seemingly condemning such a large portion of the population. Jones probably wouldn't like me saying that around 46 percent of the voting population is like that. But the fact is that we know from other historical examples (such as the Nazis) that a large portion of the population can, in fact, be made to support horrific things, things far worse than what the GOP is doing right now (for now, anyway). Or more directly relevant to US history, we know that a large majority of the white population in the South supported slavery or Jim Crow segregation. While treated as a saint nowadays, at the time, Martin Luther King was disapproved of by a large majority of white Americans. The notion that a large portion of the US population, particularly the white population, could be motivated by racism is... perfectly well-supported by US historical precedent.

Now, do I think this is the best way to win over those Trump voters? No. Democratic politicians should not say such things. They should instead be trying to inform the fools, appeal to other aspects of the bigots' self-interest, and to the greedy ones, either appeal to their better natures (it might not be in your fiscal self-interest, but can you really be ok with tearing apart families?) or argue that their greed is better served by Democrats (for example, Trump's trade wars might be harming their business). Or, just as importantly, appeal to those who didn't vote for Trump or Clinton (who are easier to convince to vote for Democrats). But I'm not a Democratic politician and so I don't need to finesse the truth to make Trump voters feel less shitty about their shitty behavior.
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  #272  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:37 AM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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He is also saying that one consequence of the ill-thought-out, unreasonable, dishonest and unconstructive attacks on the Right has been increased polarisation of the conflict, contributing to the rise in popularity of the extreme-right and the election of Trump..
Let's be honest here, the right voted for Trump as a direct result of having a black muslim kenyan as president. They voted for a unabashed racist who championed their racism and hate. They embraced being the "Fuck your feelings" party. The smash his head in party.

The left polarized the debate by having the audacity to elect a black man. That's it, that's meat of their attacks, they elected a black man and the white conservative population assumed next would come the culling of white people because that is exactly what they would do if they had power, and that's exactly what they are doing now. In fact for years they ran with bullshit claims that Obama was going to take their guns and put everyone in death camps. Remember that, the whole death camps thing that didn't exist? Or the Muslim thing that didn't exist, or the kenyan birth certificate that didn't exist, or... the list of bullshit, threats, actual violence and obstruction that occurred for 8 years goes on and on and suddenly gets a pass.

The idea that liberals somehow caused Trump through attacking the right is excellent victim blaming. Considering they felt attacked just by the existence of black people who vote. What should we do to coddle the right? Lock up all black people, or perhaps take away their voting rights... oh that's right, that's exactly what the right is doing to remove the threat of black life all liberals need to do is stand by and watch it happen, maybe while debating the merits while smoking a pipe or something.
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  #273  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:20 AM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Ok getting back to the video. My first comments were based on watching for several seconds and then trying to find a transcript, as then I don't have to take notes while watching and it goes by much faster. But I guess that won't do, so watching the video here I come. In bullet point.

•Disagreement without disrespect, something we ask liberals to do but give a pass to the many many conservatives who have outright told us they don't care about other people's feelings and refuse to give them respect. So right away if the video doesn't focus at least some on the disrespectful of the right we know it's not giving a fair representation of the issue. It makes me think of sports. You can either be drug free and proud of your moral victory and 20th place ribbon, or you can take drugs and compete for 1st place. Now of course those competing for first don't want more competition, so they will be vocal about how not doing drugs is great and you should be proud of your morally sound 20th place, all the while doing it them themselves. At a certain point you have to accept that your competition doesn't actually want what's best for you but what's best for themselves, and are looking to convince you to not compete against them in whatever way they can.

•Oh god, he starts talks, so slow, and pauses, at every, other word. One minute in and he's gotten through 2 sentences, god this is painful, transcripts are the fucking best!

•Some meat! Which liberals only listen to NPR and read the NewYork Times. A minority it seems. Research data shows that on average liberals get their news from a wider range of sources and have a better understand of events than conservatives. In part this makes sense as it was Fox news, not NPR that dubbed every other news channel "Mainstream media" as shorthand to make it easier for their viewers to dismiss it.

•We hurt their fee fees! Daww, is the party of fuck their feelings hurting, let me fix that booboo for you. Conservatives take offense at being *called* racist but don't take offense to actual racism. Which is a big key here, conservatives feel offended because we point out who they are instead of what they imagine to be and that hurts their feelings.

•Omg holy shit, "Liberals treat red states like colonizers treat third world countries" did he just say that? Does he not have a clue about power dynamics or is he just choosing to forget they exist.

•Now comes the we need to convert them part, because apparently when you are dealing with actual nazis the answer isn't to smash them and tell them to fuck off, it's to debate with them, as that worked out so well in the past. I'd say one of the biggest liberal blindspots is thinking that if we just find the right way to say something, racists will suddenly stop being racists, and suddenly care about the lives of people just moments before they wanted to eradicate. Van Jones wants us to become friends with the Nazis. Which just leads to more nazis and their complicit friends.

•Apparently liberals like kale. Which is a totally true fact and not at all a conservative insult about how sissy liberals are.

•Black people not voting for racists is apparently the exact same as republicans not voting for liberals because, um, what exactly, Liberals want to jail and murder all conservatives, haha no of course not! but we know for a fact the republican party wants to jail and kill blacks and are doing so at this very moment. It's a great false equivalency.

•Republicans have indeed voted against their own self interests, this is shown in many ways, from the coal miners still being layed off, to the many republicans who have remorse voting for trump because the prosperity they were promised didn't materialize. Now why might that be, well Van suggests it's because there's a higher reason for their vote, a core value, a reason that would make voting against their economic self interest viable, and what is that? Well thanks to Trump, we know it's racism and sexism. We know that Trump got elected because of his racist screed. Conservatives voted against their self interest because they view black people in power as scarier than anything else and their values are to have white people control things. We know this because of the many interviews trying to "understand" poor whites where those people have resigned themselves to a life of medical problems, debt and early death and seem disappointed that their leaders wont help them, but not angry about it, because at least their leaders are white and aren't a black kenyan.

•That Van Jones thinks rich white liberals vote against their self interests by voting for taxes means he either ascribes to the slash and burn, 'fuck everyone, I got mine,' we'll melt their teeth if we have to, money hoarding business strategy or he doesn't understand economics. Either way it doesn't look good. The slash and burn hoarder business is never sustainable, it's a spiral of lowering returns until society collapses, revolution happens and the hoarding dictator is hung or brutalized (hell, history says every time you excessively hoard money and property from the poor in a downward spiral, they will eventually kill you or your family). If the goal isn't to grab as much as you can and run, then you need a functioning society to sell your product and live in. Google's worth is wholly set on the presumption that power and telecommunications are easily available to everyone. Making sure people you will never meet have a good life and education is in fact making sure they have the ability to use your product when they want and don't try to murder you. That doesn't seem like going against economic self interest at all.
Of course this isn't just me saying this, this is the many liberal business owners who were against Trump's tax plans that would allow them to pay less. It often turns out that not shitting where you eat is a great idea, and making sure others are well enough off that they aren't shitting in your sink benefits everyone.

•If we only hug the nazi supporters everything will be better.... for the nazis.
(and yes, he did literally suggest that maybe republicans just need a hug).

•Oow something I agree with him on. Conservatives have grown to become anti-liberal, but that's nothing new. The drug war was built to remove blacks and liberals. It was specifically targeted at liberal hippies, and adjusted so republicans could still profit and use those same drugs. The difference is we're seeing more of the anti-liberal trolls thanks to the race to the bottom that is twitter..

•One of the many issues here is that he keeps taking conservatives at their word. Conservatives are absolutely not 'pro-family' that's just laughable when you look at the data. They are pro-control. They don't care about family values or life, but they do care about making sure they are in control of your family and your life. That he just called gay people family values allies of republicans really says he doesn't know much about republicans goals and chooses to be ignorant as to why they would never ever consider a gay couple a family. That he thinks pro-marriage republicans are for healthy stable marriages for all people is adorable and naive to the point it strains credibility.

•It was interesting just how much time he tip toed around not saying "racism" when describing the 'new conservatism' so much hemming and hawwing and hand waving. You know he wants to say it, but he just can't, don't want to be offensive, so let's just beat around this bush for a few more decades shall we. It's pretty amazing just how much we are expected to coddle conservatives.

•"Black community". On a side note, I've been informed multiple times by black activist friends that using the phrase "black community" is questionable at best because there is no singular 'black community' except the one defined by white people. There are communities that happen to be black, like Hip-hop but the idea of a 'black community' is built on white people being unable to see nuance and lumping everyone together as a single group.


Van Jones seems to be that friend who finds you being raped at a party and instead of stopping it asks if you were nice to the rapist, if you said no politely and inoffensively, if you considered the rapists feelings, did they have a bad day, you probably didn't even ask, I mean obviously things are hard for the rapist, haven't you considered their point of view? Besides doesn't hating the rapist make you a rapist.
At a certain point you might consider this person to not actually be your friend and if you tried to stay friends with them perhaps you should make a therapy appointment for why you keep returning to abusive relationships.

I don't know who this Van guy is, but it's clear he is not on my side and he is not my friend.

Last edited by Ari; 07-13-2018 at 07:34 AM.
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  #274  
Old 07-13-2018, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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But I'm not a Democratic politician and so I don't need to finesse the truth to make Trump voters feel less shitty about their shitty behavior.
lol No one links to us at :ff: so you don't need to follow Van Jones's advice.

You can even diss his advice and him on spurious grounds and there'd be no harm done. Except maybe to your own self-regard.
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  #275  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:08 PM
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You can even diss his advice and him on spurious grounds and there'd be no harm done. Except maybe to your own self-regard.
Yes, and you can even dismiss my arguments as "spurious" and harmful to my "self-regard" without providing any reason for why they are so.

What's your point?

I suppose it would be unreasonable of me to ask you to explain what exactly it is you disagree with and why you consider my arguments not merely wrong, but deceitful. And why you immediately jump to "dissing" me as deceitful before engaging with my points.
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