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Old 11-18-2011, 09:13 PM
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Once Upon a Time...: Concerning the American Change in Management, and the Lies that Will Kill You

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The government established by the Constitution was the indispensable means by which the ruling class established its dominion over the new nation and sought to ensure the continuation of that dominion into the future. That government was created by and for the benefit of a very small number of privileged individuals; the vast majority of "the people" were struck from the ranks of those with whom it was concerned in any positive sense.

The Constitution created a government of, by and for the most wealthy and powerful Americans -- and it made certain (insofar as men can make such things certain) that their rule would never be seriously threatened. The most wealthy and powerful Americans were the ones who wrote it, after all.
:gah: I find this very depressing. Interesting, but depressing.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

Is there any place, anywhere, anywhen, where the common people have not struggled with the rich for some more scraps off their table, while the rich strove to complete their domination, something they were never quite able to do because if they did, then pretty soon there would be no-one left to do all the farming and working?
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

"All men want to be rich, rich men want to be king, and a king ain't satisfied 'til he rules everything." -- Bruce Springsteen
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Old 11-19-2011, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

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Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
Once Upon a Time...: Concerning the American Change in Management, and the Lies that Will Kill You

Quote:
The government established by the Constitution was the indispensable means by which the ruling class established its dominion over the new nation and sought to ensure the continuation of that dominion into the future. That government was created by and for the benefit of a very small number of privileged individuals; the vast majority of "the people" were struck from the ranks of those with whom it was concerned in any positive sense.

The Constitution created a government of, by and for the most wealthy and powerful Americans -- and it made certain (insofar as men can make such things certain) that their rule would never be seriously threatened. The most wealthy and powerful Americans were the ones who wrote it, after all.
:gah: I find this very depressing. Interesting, but depressing.
Here's another interesting read along the same lines as the Terry Bouton book that blogger Silber is liberally quoting from, all about the assholishness of the founding fathers. Particularly James Madison...



For those with an hour to kill, here's Holton talking about his book back in '07 at the MA Historical.

If people knew their history they wouldn't be so enamored of the Founding Fuckheads.

And teh gridlock in Washington? It's built in, baby. Government is supposed to NOT work, exactly the way it doesn't.
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Old 11-19-2011, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

I totally sense a new reading topic coming. I am now eager to read both of these books.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

I've heard these arguments before, and in general, as with so many things, they leave me feeling conflicted and confused. Maybe the real story is a mixed bag of idealistic, enlightenment intention and self serving power grab. Certainly when you read some of the preserved personal communications of some the founders, you see a sincere desire for the realization of principles of liberty and social justice. They were not cynically self serving at that point, for the most part.

Switching gears, it's a riot to see the TeaTards expound on enumerated purview of government, claiming the purpose of the Constitution was expressly for limiting the powers of the central government. If that was what they wanted, they would have stuck with the Articles of Confederation, yeah?

Switching gears again to a possibly inappropriate gratuitous pop music vid, enjoy some Foo Fighters. They wanted something beautiful, they wanted something true? I remain optimistic, if jaded and skeptical.

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Old 11-20-2011, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

why worry about how the world is measured
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

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Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
I've heard these arguments before, and in general, as with so many things, they leave me feeling conflicted and confused. Maybe the real story is a mixed bag of idealistic, enlightenment intention and self serving power grab. Certainly when you read some of the preserved personal communications of some the founders, you see a sincere desire for the realization of principles of liberty and social justice. They were not cynically self serving at that point, for the most part.
Meh, not so much. Jefferson certainly was behind the people, but not the rest of those elite asshats that decorate our coins and currency. They held a serious distrust of democracy and the common people, and made a concerted effort at the Constitutional Convention to create a national government designed to be unresponsive to the people but very responsive to the gentry and wealthy elite. To that end, they were pretty successful.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

Ya gotta give me Franklin, at least. Paine was balls out for rights of the commoner, even though he had nothing to with the Constitution. There is for sure an element of privilege, regarding voter suffrage and electoral college, but still, it was the most liberal governing document at the time, or at least that is my concept of the document. Consider that it was a form of government only once removed from whatever you call England's government of the time, With Houses of Commons and Lords and a powerful Monarch. Consider the differences between nations with and without debtor's prisons.

Ugh, I might have to read Bouton's book. I've only read snippets of the arguments up to now, might have to have a look at the total animal.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was always under the impression that the constitution was written with an electorate of white christian men of at least middle-class status in mind. The kind of democracy where there is a very real property requirement and where they make sure that only people from the right circles have a say.

Not such undesirable elements as poor people, black people or worse, women.
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  #11  
Old 11-21-2011, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

It is certainly true that it took more than a century to achieve nearly universal suffrage. Prior to that voting rights varied from state to state, and even within some states a good deal. Some states had religious and racial requirements and nearly all had property or tax status requirements, sometimes literacy tests. Slaves and their descendants, and women were the last to win suffrage. The Constitution itself has little to say about suffrage, although many of the later amendments do.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

I give the founders points for leaving religion out of the Constitution. The only mention of it is when it was dated, the Year of Our Lord, which is how they dated things back then. There is also a clause which forbids religious tests.


The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
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Old 11-23-2011, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Nothing New Under The Sun

This film is not too kooky. It has a pretty fair summary of the origins of the Constitution, IMO. It does an OK job of presenting the tension between the Federalists and Anti Federalists. That part starts at 51 minutes and lasts about ten minutes. It stays on the historical fallout of the theme for quite a while after that.

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