Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:57 AM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: MVCMLI
Images: 294
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
How about a flat Tax on sexual orentation?
I think they prefer to be called sexual asiatic.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (09-22-2011), Deadlokd (09-22-2011), Kael (09-22-2011), livius drusus (09-22-2011), Nullifidian (11-14-2011), Pan Narrans (09-22-2011), Sock Puppet (09-22-2011), Stephen Maturin (09-22-2011), Stormlight (09-26-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #27  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:01 AM
Angakuk's Avatar
Angakuk Angakuk is offline
NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCCLXXXIII
Default Re: taxation

LOL, they are non-white and gay, who cares what they prefer to be called?
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful. :shakebible:
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:11 AM
Escapegoat's Avatar
Escapegoat Escapegoat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: CXCV
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
LOL, they are non-white and gay, who cares what they prefer to be called?
Them damned libruls, of course!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:18 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCCCXXIII
Images: 11
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
I don't think religious institutions are automatically exempt from taxes, I think they have to meet certain requirements, such as being engaged in charitable activities.

I think I'm mostly ok with that, but I think that these charitable purposes should be disentangled from the religious aspects. That is, these organizations may be administered by religious organizations, but in themselves should not be serving religious purposes or be violating non-discrimination ordinances, etc. The finances of these charities should be separate from the finances of the general church, which would be subject to taxation.

I also think we should enforce the prohibition on political activities for such groups more strictly.

Atheists should be taxed at the same rate as far as atheist organizations would follow the same rules as every other charitable or non-profit type of organization.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:26 AM
Angakuk's Avatar
Angakuk Angakuk is offline
NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCCLXXXIII
Default Re: taxation

I could be wrong about this, but I think that the rationale behind the tax exemption for religious organizations is different than the rationale behind the exemption for charitable organizations. It is my understanding that the exemption for religious organizations is based on 1st amendment principles. The theory being that imposing a tax on a religious organization would violate the free exercise clause. The exception to that would be if the religious organization was directly engaged in partisan political activity or in commerce unrelated to its religious purpose. If I am wrong about this I am sure our resident shysters will happily correct me.
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful. :shakebible:
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:34 AM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMCDLXXXV
Images: 2
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
I don't think religious institutions are automatically exempt from taxes, I think they have to meet certain requirements, such as being engaged in charitable activities.
Nope. Religious organizations pretty much receive an automatic exemption under 501(c)(3). Claiming to be a church, hospital, or educational organization also places you in the "charmed circle" of public charity status. IIRC they don't even comply with notification requirements that other non-profits do. They also don't have to file 990s like other non-profits. They don't have to get a charitable solicitation license. There is virtually no inquiry. The IRS usually won't even question it unless the church is operating for clearly non-exempt purposes or for the benefit of private individuals. Even then, they don't push it too hard. Like Scientology is still a church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
I could be wrong about this, but I think that the rationale behind the tax exemption for religious organizations is different than the rationale behind the exemption for charitable organizations. It is my understanding that the exemption for religious organizations is based on 1st amendment principles. The theory being that imposing a tax on a religious organization would violate the free exercise clause. The exception to that would be if the religious organization was directly engaged in partisan political activity or in commerce unrelated to its religious purpose.
Eh, somewhat. Exempt organizations can engage in some unrelated commercial activity without compromising their exempt status. There are tests for determining how much commercial activity is too much. They can also engage in some partisan political activity so long as such activity is not political campaigning (so lobbying is ok in some circumstances), and so long as it does not constitute a "substantial part" of the organization's activities within the IRS meaning of the term. I'm not sure about the interaction of the free exercise clause and tax exempt status for religious organizations. Historically the IRS has been very reluctant to push the matter at all, so it doesn't come up very often.

Last edited by ChuckF; 09-22-2011 at 05:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (09-22-2011), But (09-22-2011), chunksmediocrites (09-22-2011), LadyShea (09-22-2011), livius drusus (09-22-2011), Nullifidian (11-14-2011), Sock Puppet (09-22-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #32  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:07 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCCCXXIII
Images: 11
Default Re: taxation

In that case, I think that religious organizations should have to apply for such status and shouldn't qualify for exemption based on the simple fact that they are a church.

That, IMO, seems like an endorsement of religion (in general), as opposed to various forms of irreligion (atheism, agnosticism, etc.). Having them pay taxes doesn't constitute preventing the free exercise of religion if it is not applied inequitably, I would imagine.

And hell, given this "money is speech" shit, by that logic, taxation is prohibiting free speech.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (09-22-2011), LadyShea (09-22-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #33  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:34 AM
Angakuk's Avatar
Angakuk Angakuk is offline
NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCCLXXXIII
Default Re: taxation

The argument, as I understand it, goes something like this. If the government has the authority to tax religious organization then it could could control the free exercise of religion by levying excessively onerous or even confiscatory taxes on religious organizations. I am hardly an expert on the subject, but I do know that there is a lot of literature available on the subject. Probably a fair amount of case law as well.
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful. :shakebible:
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:57 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCCCXXIII
Images: 11
Default Re: taxation

I understand, but it seems to me that it would have to target religious organizations or specific religions in order to be infringing on their 1st amendment rights. It doesn't seem to me that having to pay the same tax as any similar non-religious organization would be prohibiting religious expression.

I don't think they should be treated more harshly than any other organization but nor do I think they should be treated better.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (09-22-2011)
  #35  
Old 09-22-2011, 07:03 AM
Angakuk's Avatar
Angakuk Angakuk is offline
NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCCLXXXIII
Default Re: taxation

The point, I believe, is that if they can't be taxed, then they can't be taxed excessively or punitively. You have to keep in mind that many of the colonists belonged to dissenting churches that had experienced harsh treatment under English law.

In any case, you will just have to take up the matter with a Constitutional scholar, which I certainly am not.
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful. :shakebible:
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-22-2011, 07:40 AM
Vivisectus's Avatar
Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCCCXVII
Blog Entries: 1
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
I don't think religious institutions are automatically exempt from taxes, I think they have to meet certain requirements, such as being engaged in charitable activities.

I think I'm mostly ok with that, but I think that these charitable purposes should be disentangled from the religious aspects. That is, these organizations may be administered by religious organizations, but in themselves should not be serving religious purposes or be violating non-discrimination ordinances, etc. The finances of these charities should be separate from the finances of the general church, which would be subject to taxation.

I also think we should enforce the prohibition on political activities for such groups more strictly.

Atheists should be taxed at the same rate as far as atheist organizations would follow the same rules as every other charitable or non-profit type of organization.
Depends on where you are I believe. I believe that in the states it is very easy to get a church tax-exempt, and the level of charity that needs to be involved is quite low. I would simply say give them tax-breaks, depending on how much they can show to have spent on charity.

Some of those mega-churches spend a lot of money on themselves and pay their ministers awfully well, and they can hardly be called non-profit organisations. Tax them I say! It would be the equivalent of the tax we REALLY need and that would sort all our sovereign debt problems across the world: a progressive Tax on Stupid: the more dumb you bring into the world, the more you are taxed.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (09-22-2011), Sock Puppet (09-22-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #37  
Old 09-22-2011, 11:22 AM
Deadlokd's Avatar
Deadlokd Deadlokd is offline
Not as smart as Adam
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensland
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCXXVIII
Images: 21
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
The minute they abandon the spiritual and meddle in the physical/political world.
__________________
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (09-26-2011)
  #38  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:05 PM
Vivisectus's Avatar
Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCCCXVII
Blog Entries: 1
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
All Atheist Churches, sure thing. Actually, I think the atheist Church of the SubGenius is the only church in the US that pays its taxes.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Stormlight (09-26-2011)
  #39  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:50 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
Wait what? Atheists are a group of individuals just like Christians. Individual's taxes shouldn't be based on their belief stance wrt deity. Or their preferred genitals on a romantic partner...what point are you trying to make with that, thedoc? Do you understand the difference between people and institutions?

Religious institutions collect money for offering a service. Just like a business.

I have no problem with not taxing the portion of those funds used to supply those services (expenses) or reinvested to improve/expand those services (buildings and permits and such). I have no problem with not taxing the portion of those funds that go to charity. Why shouldn't they pay taxes on profit and investment income, however?

Most religious organizations would not be taxed under my plan, but those that run like businesses would. The Mormon Church is one big example, Scientology another. Both take in billions and aren't accountable to anyone. Other non-profits have to open their books.

Last edited by LadyShea; 09-22-2011 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
erimir (09-22-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #40  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:43 PM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCLXXXII
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Do you understand the difference between people and institutions?
I believe I do, but why don't you explain it in detail so we can know if we are on the same page or not.

It is also my understanding that there are groups of Athiests that are members of a recognized association. Do we need to define religious groups and anti-religious groups?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:50 PM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMCDLXXXV
Images: 2
Default Re: taxation

fwiw, I think we should tax the shit out of churches and mosques and Scientology and other expensive delusions. And when I say tax, I mean tax. Like dissolution of the monasteries style. But we can't, so we don't. That's how it goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Do we need to define religious groups and anti-religious groups?
lol wtf does this even mean. I think we should, for the Constitution.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Stormlight (09-26-2011)
  #42  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:55 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
It is also my understanding that there are groups of Athiests that are members of a recognized association. Do we need to define religious groups and anti-religious groups?
Yes, some atheists choose to start a non profit organization, but they are not considered a religious institution, and therefore have to fall under a charitable or educational organization, and demonstrate staying within that framework to maintain their tax free status.

Churches would be allowed equal access to such designations under my taxation plan. I don't think they should have a special and separate designation, though.

Last edited by LadyShea; 09-22-2011 at 05:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:09 PM
Clutch Munny's Avatar
Clutch Munny Clutch Munny is offline
Clutchenheimer
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMMLXXXV
Images: 1
Default Re: taxation

Once, I cognized a group of Atheists.

Later I recognized it. Better tax them.
__________________
Your very presence is making me itchy.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Dingfod (09-23-2011), Stormlight (09-26-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #44  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:55 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: taxation

Perhaps we are not on the same page, thedoc. Can you explain the point you were trying to make with these two questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
How about a flat Tax on sexual orentation?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:02 PM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCLXXXII
Default Re: taxation

Let's see churches are a group of people who get together and talk about God and the Bible. When Athiests gather as a group they talk about God and the Bible. One has faith that God exists, the other has faith that God does not exist. There is no proof either way, and absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:04 PM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Refreshingly Stupid
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMDCCCLXXXIX
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Well I ,at least, admit that taxation is slavery
Wow! Admitting something that isn't even arguably true?! I didn't think you could DO that!!

I hereby admit that the moon is in fact made of green cheese and that AML is high-functioning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
:laugh:

Every now and then I forget that Lew Rockwell is a neo-Confederate fanboy. Thank you for the reminder!

And for everyone who believes that Ph.D. in philosophy = automatic supergenius,1 here's Steven Yates' blog. He's a Paultard and apparently has plans to relocate to Chile, probably because of freedom.

1Clutch Munny is a supergenius, of course, but that is causally unrelated to his formal education in philosophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
How about a flat Tax on sexual orentation?
I think they prefer to be called sexual asiatic.
:yup:

"Celexual" is also acceptable.
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (09-22-2011), LadyShea (09-22-2011), Stormlight (09-26-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
  #47  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:06 PM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCLXXXII
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Perhaps we are not on the same page, thedoc. Can you explain the point you were trying to make with these two questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc
Does anyone think we should Tax religious institutions, and if so, should we tax Athiests at the same rate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
How about a flat Tax on sexual orentation?

No point really, just some things that occured to me, probably the cold medication. Actually just trying to make people think about different things, and possabilities. Taxes are more complex than most people understand, and I am certainly not the person to explain or try to simplify them.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:08 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Let's see churches are a group of people who get together and talk about God and the Bible. When Athiests gather as a group they talk about God and the Bible. One has faith that God exists, the other has faith that God does not exist. There is no proof either way, and absence of proof is not proof of absence.
And what does this have to do with taxes?

Last edited by LadyShea; 09-22-2011 at 06:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (09-22-2011)
  #49  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:11 PM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCLXXXII
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
How about a flat Tax on sexual orentation?
I think they prefer to be called sexual asiatic.
:yup:

"Celexual" is also acceptable.
I prefer 'horny'.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:11 PM
Adam's Avatar
Adam Adam is offline
Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts: XMVDCCXLIX
Images: 29
Default Re: taxation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Let's see churches are a group of people who get together and talk about God and the Bible.
Wow, you're right, this "taxation" thing sure is complicated! Until just now, I was completely unaware that informal "group[s] of people who get together" for whatever purpose were considered taxable entities!
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
ARMORED HOT DOG
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (09-22-2011), Crumb (09-22-2011), erimir (09-22-2011), LadyShea (09-22-2011), The Man (09-26-2011)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.95433 seconds with 13 queries