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View Poll Results: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?
Yes, it is OK. 9 30.00%
Is it OK not to punch a Nazi in the head? 9 30.00%
It's OK, but I prefer the genitals or solar plexus. 15 50.00%
Violence is never the answer, unless the question is some kind of Nazi shit. 14 46.67%
No, it is awesome. 10 33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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  #276  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:14 PM
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  #277  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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  #278  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

That'll be quite enough out of you, mockie.

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  #279  
Old 07-14-2018, 09:25 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
You can even diss his advice and him on spurious grounds and there'd be no harm done. Except maybe to your own self-regard.
Yes, and you can even dismiss my arguments as "spurious" and harmful to my "self-regard" without providing any reason for why they are so.
Sorry, my mistake. erimir. I didn't intend that to look like or be taken as a dismissal of all your arguments or indeed the broader position you have taken over the issues Van Jones raises in the clip. I can see I worded it badly. My bad!

What's your point?

That your point about your not being a politician and therefore not responsible for facilitating Trump's and the GOP's dangerous polarisation of the USA is mistaken. If we engage in the conflict, I believe we share responsibility for the fallout from the manner in which we engage in the conflict.
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  #280  
Old 07-14-2018, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

I am trying to get at what is actually true about Trump supporters/Republicans, not what is the most politically useful way to talk about them.

Understanding what is going on can be useful for determining how to move forward from there. And I also personally put value on seeking and speaking the truth even if it's not politically useful, although I understand there is a role for politicians who can engage with political opponents without describing them as bluntly as I would. (This is why I don't think I will ever be involved in politics except behind the scenes.)

I would also note that I am not engaging with any Republicans in my discussions on :ff:.

Unless you count Jerome or AML, but they are obviously not good faith interlocutors in the first place.
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  #281  
Old 07-14-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I am trying to get at what is actually true about Trump supporters/Republicans, not what is the most politically useful way to talk about them.
And Jones is trying to get at what is the most politically useful way to talk about Republicans, not just what is actually true about them.

I would also note that I am not engaging with any Republicans in my discussions on :ff:.

Point taken. However, I am assuming you and most other anti-Republicans contributing here also use similar invective elsewhere as a matter of habit, so a discussion of the merits or otherwise of those habits is not out of place at :ff:. Added to which, we influence each other by the tone we use as well as the arguments we make, so even when you are debating with left-wingers it probably helps to avoid the worst of the toxic rhetoric that Jones is condemning in that clip.
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  #282  
Old 07-14-2018, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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I am assuming you and most other anti-Republicans contributing here also use similar invective elsewhere as a matter of habit
I can’t speak for anyone else here, but… no. No, I don’t. I mean, I will with friends and at political blogs where Republicans don’t comment, but in company where I’m not certain of people’s political persuasions, I mostly keep my political comments to bland, nonpartisan denunciations of greed, unequal distributions of power, etc., if I even bring up politics. And as you’ve seen, I’ve written at length about politics for a more general audience where I may have harsh words about Republican politicians, but keep my commentary about Republican voters quite a bit more diplomatic.

People discuss things differently with different audiences. It’s just how humans function. An old bit of writing advice I remember is that each time you add a character to a work of fiction, you’re really adding multiple characters, because you have to alter each other character’s characterisation when they interact with that character. So if you have three characters, and add a fourth character with whom all those three characters interact at some point, then you have four new characters to write. That might be overstated slightly, but it’s still pretty accurate. Just because people act a certain way here doesn’t mean they’ll act that way everywhere.

I didn’t listen to the whole video, but most of Jones’ points seem either obvious, banal, or just wrong. I used to have a lot of respect for him, but he’s gone completely off the deep end in the Trump era, and I think I’ve heard enough to conclude that I don’t need to hear more.
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  #283  
Old 07-15-2018, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
And Jones is trying to get at what is the most politically useful way to talk about Republicans, not just what is actually true about them.
Useful for who?
Has the coddling of republicans actually produced gains for liberals?
It seems like the argument is that if we are nice enough, and tip toe around anything that offends that maybe, just maybe republicans won't beat us when they get home from work. Eventually we will wear them down through niceness and they will realize we are equals, and we must take their abuse and debate it logically and kindly, don't want to trigger another beating, until this magical moment occurs.

Quote:
toxic rhetoric that Jones is condemning in that clip.
Like his clear want but inability to call racists racist because that will hurt their feelings? That bit was one of the most telling when he literally waved his hands about to suggest *cough* racists *cough* but couldn't actually say it. If we are too scared to address the issues head on, then the abuser has won.

The irony here is that since politics are all about emotion and almost nothing about fact, the republicans have shown that angry rabble rousing rhetoric is quite effective at helping your side win. So of course I greatly question anyone who says that that isn't the 'proper way' to win and we should accept the abuse until we win 'properly'. Now I'm not saying we need to go full Trump or anything, but it's clear that many authoritarian republicans only answer to authoritarian views. You are either above them and to be listened to, or below them and to be walked on. There's no equality.

Building a mass of angry people who won't stop until their compatriots are freed from jails and given the right to vote and who will punch or shame anyone who thinks otherwise is exactly what Trump Republicans fear. They are bullies that fear their victim getting a backbone. When one side honestly wants the otherside dead or enslaved, how can there ever be real debate?
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  #284  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:24 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

If "coddling republicans" is intended to include democratic dialogue, then yes, I believe the whole arc of history from feudal oppression to social democracy is down to "coddling" as you call it.
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  #285  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

What democratic dialogue have the republicans come to in good faith to work out differences?
What democratic dialogue do you suggest we open up with republicans, how will it change their views and policies and how long do you think it will take to cause this change?
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  #286  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

The GOP has been playing Total War with real weapons and live ammo, while the Dems have been playing seniors mixed doubles lawn bowling, for decades. That helped bring about a climate in which Donald Fucking Trump could get elected POTUS, but not for the reasons you hateful libtard fucks think.

The real problem is the Dems played their senior mixed doubles lawn bowling while wearing regular clothing, a highly belligerent and confrontational act. We need to play senior mixed doubles lawn bowling while wearing Victorian garb and knitting tea cozies. That'll bridge the divide quite nicely.

Republicans Won't Save Us Because Their Voters Don't Want to Be Saved: A Farce in Six Acts
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  #287  
Old 08-01-2018, 07:23 AM
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  #288  
Old 08-01-2018, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Based on the last sentence, I think it looks like things are going pretty well. :scratch:
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  #289  
Old 08-01-2018, 08:14 PM
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Phoenix is hot, but it’s totally friendly to Nazis.
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  #290  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve View Post
Based on the last sentence, I think it looks like things are going pretty well. :scratch:
I suppose it is indeed a step up from the basement.

Also #squanderedprivilege
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  #291  
Old 08-04-2018, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Here are a few more totally, completely, 100% non-dumbfuck, non-racist, non-stump-jumping, non-hicks who are wholly amenable to voting for someone other than Trump and would do exactly that if only we'd reach out and engage them in a good-faith dialogue.
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  #292  
Old 08-04-2018, 04:45 AM
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Self castration to own the libs.
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  #293  
Old 08-04-2018, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

This is all especially funny because the alpha male totally not russian bots have occasionally used the phrase "Soy Boy" to describe beta cuck libtards. Soy beans are clearly a killary konspiracy to emasculate the population, making them weak and flaccid. Even their product is a joke to Trumpies.
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I do, I'm a good American. I believe that we all have to toe the line."
Ahhhhthoritarians. As someone lower down on the rung, it's not our place to question those in command. If they say die, we die. We shall grumble about it, but do as we are told, as you, my underling, will do what I say. Don't talk back boy! It's why trying to treat them like equals will never work. No alpha treats their underlings like equals, and if you do, you're probably not an alpha and shouldn't be listened to.

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  #294  
Old 08-06-2018, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

So, indeed, discourse.

d3996a3885.png

John Scalzi on Twitter: "1. It's really frustrating to me that more people don't understand that racist/alt-right people have gamified their rhetoric; they're not interested in discussion, they're slapping down cards from a "Debate: The Gathering" stack, and the only goal is taking heads."
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  #295  
Old 08-06-2018, 11:37 PM
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Smol Thrad.
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  #296  
Old 08-07-2018, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

That's why they use memes like Pepe the Frog and Trash Dove, because when anyone points out the dogwhistle, it sounds like those silly alarmist stories the media has always done about youth culture.
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  #297  
Old 08-07-2018, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

You see this sort of thing on Facebook all the time. It goes like this: Poster 1 will post something blatantly racist, sexist, and/or homophobic, sometimes openly advocating persecution or even death for gays or whomever is the target of the screed. Poster 2 protests and perhaps even points out that this is clearly hate speech. Poster 1 replies, "That's the problem with you Liberals; you can't take a joke."


I vividly remember a particularly nasty "friend" on Facebook who would openly call for persecution of "practicing homosexuals" -- up to and including having them put to death. He was downright obsessive about it, and seemed to post about little else.

Then he spent days whining about how he was being "persecuted" because someone had the gall to complain about his hate-filled tirades. In response to the complaint, he ranted for quite some time about how terrible it was that "Liberals are trying to suppress my freedom of speech," all because "they just can't take a joke."
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  #298  
Old 08-07-2018, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
That's why they use memes like Pepe the Frog and Trash Dove, because when anyone points out the dogwhistle, it sounds like those silly alarmist stories the media has always done about youth culture.
There is a related thing that the Handmaid's Tale does well in some instances.

There's an episode where they have an event called a "Prayvaganza", a name which is incredibly corny and ridiculous. Various ridiculous rituals they have doesn't make them any less powerful though.

Or the thing which was going around recently, the Saudi fashion show using drones instead of models. How ridiculous.


But just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean the Saudis will be shamed into doing anything. It's more like a mark of how completely their gender apartheid dominates things there. In the US, a far right religious group having a fashion show this way would attract too much mockery, and they require recruits if they want to grow, including female recruits. The Saudi religious freaks don't need to worry about recruiting people, they simply impose on them.

The idea that the ridiculous can't coexist with the dangerous is how we got Trump.

A lot of fascists start out as jokes.
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  #299  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Thrad on fascists separating humans from rights.

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  #300  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

He seems nice:


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