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Old 11-11-2012, 07:15 PM
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Default Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

The situation could not be more starkly defined. The prez campaigned on a platform of raising taxes on incomes greater than 250k. The Senate can probably swing it, but the House, oh the House, they just can not seem to get there from here.

A more perfect distillation of two opposing points of view could scarcely be imagined, a perfect distillation to the essential elements. Supply Side v Demand Side. The decision point in the timeline is so imminent that there will be no time to manufacture distracting side show issues. This is perfect.

Who will win, who will lose, who will be the first to go over the edge of the horrifying dizzy heights of TEH FISCAL CLIFF? omg

A catch all thrad for matters germaine, of or relating to, directly, indirectly, tangentially or obliquely, the subject of the dread FISCAL CLIFF. Do not try to start your own, because

FIRST!

END OF THE PAPER
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

They will not let anything happen that will threaten pork barrel futures.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Boner and his crazies in the House are trying to implement the Romney tax plan which is based on accounting as it is being presently practiced on Kolob.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Obama says he wants to raise taxes on the rich. GOP certainly don't want that so its solution will be to make savage spending cuts.

A compromise will eventually be reached where there will be savage spending cuts and a tiny, but almost insignificant, rise in taxes on the rich.

Regrettably, we will have to endure much rhetoric, argument, name-calling, wailing and gnashing of teeth before the 'compromise' (basically giving GOP almost everything it wants) is reached.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I want to see the President take his case to the public. He needs to make a case for the lower and middle classes, get out there and sell it. He has not done very well at this unless it's campaign season, imo. Talking to Boehner and McConnell is a waste of time. He needs to go straight to the electorate if he is going to get anything worth doing done. We'll see soon enough.

Legacy at Stake, Obama Plans Broader Push for Budget Deal - NYTimes.com

Quote:
As he prepares to meet with Congressional leaders at the White House on Friday, aides say, Mr. Obama will not simply hunker down there for weeks of closed-door negotiations as he did in mid-2011, when partisan brinkmanship over raising the nation’s debt limit damaged the economy and his political standing. He will travel beyond the Beltway at times to rally public support for a deficit-cutting accord that mixes tax increases on the wealthy with spending cuts.
Throughout his first term, I always felt like he was caving too easily and being too passive, too willing to compromise, and most importantly, not really even trying to drum up public support for actions moderate democrats wanted. Almost like he was throwing the fight.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I expect the Tea Party contingent to make a stand. Those representatives who signed Grover Norquist's promise to never raise taxes, however, may be rethinking how that's working out for them.

I also expect Obama to offer massive cuts in Social Security and Medicare unless the public rallies against such; the AARP and Occupy may find common cause here.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Keep in mind that asking the wealthiest to pay more taxes- if that's what is given, in return for slashing Medicare and Social Security- that is a shitty, shitty deal.

And in case you were doubting that the Obama Administration wasn't willing to do just that last time around, here's the evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Woodward
"This is a confidential document, last offer the president -- the White House made last year to Speaker Boehner to try to reach this $4 trillion grand bargain. And it's long and it's tedious and it's got budget jargon in it. But what it shows is a willingness to cut all kinds of things, like TRICARE, which is the sacred health insurance program for the military, for military retirees; to cut Social Security; to cut Medicare. And there are some lines in there about, "We want to get tax rates down, not only for individuals but for businesses." So Obama and the White House were willing to go quite far."
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I'm not a fan of Boehner, but the more I read, the more I sympathize with the position he's in. Every effort he's made to work with Obama has been stymied by his own party. He has thus far been unable to control his own caucus.

Cantor should be relieved from his position as majority leader. That would help. Put someone in there who can twist arms to get petulant tea partiers to behave more responsibly. Publicly shame people if necessary. The Republicans would actually get more of what they want by working with Obama. But then they might have to turn their backs on that shitbag Norquist.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Maybe a good idea? After all, it matters not what the nominal rate is, what matters is effective rate.

Democrats Like a Romney Idea to Cap Tax Deductions - NYTimes.com

Quote:
The cap — never fully detailed by Mr. Romney — is similar to a longstanding proposal by Mr. Obama to limit income tax deductions to 28 percent, even for affluent households that pay a 35 percent rate. But a firm cap of around $35,000 would hit the affluent even harder than Mr. Obama’s proposal, which has previously gotten nowhere in Congress.
No mention of cap gains in anything I've read so far. That's the one, 15% on investments, that allows those with money to invest to pay such low rates on income, like Rmoney. Guessing a good many politicians are also enjoying that rate? Let it reset to 30%.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2012, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

How about we tax all income under $50,000 at 0% and all income over $50,000 at 80%?
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

How about it?
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I would go for it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

50K is way too low, that would really fuck medical doctors in the ass. They have it hard enough paying off their student loans.

500K is better.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

How wrong is it for government to tax the wages of new college graduates whilst holding the note on their student loans looking for payment?
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I would much prefer we all pay taxes to make higher education available to all without tuition fees in the US.

Currently college graduates, especially new ones, can either A.) defer their student loans, or B.) get a tax write-off on up to $2,500 on the interest on their student loans, if they are earning less than $60k a year.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I would like to point out that the wrangling is currently about which austerity measures that the elite would most like to put in place. This is a false narrative built around the "debate" on whether we should have a lot of austerity, or a metric butt-ton of austerity, mostly in the form of "fixing" Social Security and Medicare which are not "broken".
Lynn Parramore via Alternet.org:
Quote:
The most popular red herring Social Security hustlers have unleashed into the waters of public discourse has grown into such a massive whale of a lie that liberals frequently subscribe to it. The idea goes like this: We need to somehow “fix” Social Security because people are living longer – “fix” in this context being code for “cut.” Two groups stand to benefit in the short-term from such a scheme: the greedy rich, who do not want to pay their share in taxes, and financiers, who want to move towards privatizing retirement accounts so they can collect fees. As for the masses of hard-working people who have rightfully earned their retirement, the only “fix” is the fix they will be in if already modest benefits are further reduced.
Ms. Parramore clearly covers that the architects of Social Security already planned for increased life expectancy, that the increase is actually modest when you look at the number of people living longer than 65, and that the retirement age was already increased by the Greenspan Commission.

And how's that whole ooh-scary deficit thing going?
Investors.com:
Quote:

...the federal deficit has fallen faster over the past three years than it has in any such stretch since demobilization from World War II.

In fact, outside of that post-WWII era, the only time the deficit has fallen faster was when the economy relapsed in 1937, turning the Great Depression into a decade-long affair.

If U.S. history offers any guide, we are already testing the speed limits of a fiscal consolidation that doesn't risk backfiring. That's why the best way to address the fiscal cliff likely is to postpone it.

While long-term deficit reduction is important and deficits remain very large by historical standards, the reality is that the government already has its foot on the brakes.

In this sense, the "fiscal cliff" metaphor is especially poor. The government doesn't need to apply the brakes with more force to avoid disaster. Rather the "cliff" is an artificial one that has sprung up because the two parties are able to agree on so little.
This bears repeating. The duopoly manufactured a crisis, and now have defined the choices. Not implementing austerity- which has been disastrous in Europe- is of course not on the table.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Austerity that only triggers on a certain level of growth/unemployment might not be a bad idea.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Low unemployment at least is already managed- the Federal Reserve raises interest rates to retard business activity, and thereby reduce job growth, if unemployment numbers fall too low.

And I have yet to see austerity as a plan that didn't primarily involve hardship for all but the 1%.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Well yeah, I wasn't really talking about any of the plans that are being considered.

I'd probably rather that they raise taxes when the economy is better rather than cutting spending.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Well yeah, I wasn't really talking about any of the plans that are being considered.

I'd probably rather that they raise taxes when the economy is better rather than cutting spending.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

James K. Galbraith: Six Reasons the Fiscal Cliff is a Scam
Quote:
Stripped to essentials, the fiscal cliff is a device constructed to force a rollback of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, as the price of avoiding tax increases and disruptive cuts in federal civilian programs and in the military. It was policy-making by hostage-taking, timed for the lame duck session, a contrived crisis, the plain idea now unfolding was to force a stampede.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Wasn't it just last year that the "fiscal cliff" was not raising the debt ceiling? Kinda reminds me of when the "nuclear option" changed from ending the filibuster (forever, with a simple majority) to filibustering judicial nominees. I can't keep up.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:01 AM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I really enjoy RT News Keiser Report
This week's banking scandal discussion
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

I refuse to be worried about the "fiscal cliff" because that term is so clearly trying to make me worried.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Shoving Match at the Edge of the Fiscal Cliff

Fearing the impending :trainrek:, The :pres: takes his case to the american people. Republicans respond :dollah::soapbox::dollah: starting a dialog :screaming: to clear the air between the various positions. That failing, they move to capital hill for mild negotiations :fencing: . Both sides do plenty of :objection2::overruled: before evenutally saying :not: :nono: .

Leaving the US to :cloud::icanfly: while the parties :objection2::overruled: and the public :dammitsign::doh-sign: :wtfsign: .

There could however, be serious pressure from the people :alone: forcing the parties to :shake: and come up with a kludge compromise christmas present :mrhankey: .

But it's about as likely that :hellfreezesover: .

When you're in the :twilightzone: .
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