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05-22-2008, 12:35 PM
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Admin
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ypsilanti, Mi
Gender: Male
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Fuck Farmers
...and you thought FF stood for "Freethought Forum".
So the Congress finally shows a united front against Bush, and why? To increase subsidies for farmers. Wtf?
Title shamelessly yoinked from lisarea.
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05-22-2008, 12:52 PM
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A fellow sophisticate
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cowtown, Kansas
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
My farmer cousins have gotten over $300,000 in federal subsidy payments since 2000. They need some more, to not grow corn, to not grow soybeans, to not grown sorghum.
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05-22-2008, 02:47 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fuck Farmers
The bill also had food assistance for the poor, both domestic and International, tacked onto it, as well as subsidies for fruit growers and dairy farmers, who are usually left out of such things, and even a provision for an endangered species.
Quote:
Of the bill's $307 billion cost over five years, as projected by the Congressional Budget Office, $35 billion is for commodity programs, including crop subsidies, while $209 billion is for programs to feed the poor. "That's why we talk about this being a food bill," said Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, the agriculture committee chairman. U.S. farm bill reaches well beyond the farmer - International Herald Tribune
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That's why I HATE the practice of putting all sorts of unrelated items on one bill. It makes it difficult for Congress to vote, and it makes it difficult for us taxpayers to accurately analyze any Congresspersons voting record.
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05-22-2008, 02:56 PM
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ŧiggermonkey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Springfield, MA
Gender: Bender
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Re: Fuck Farmers
__________________
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05-22-2008, 03:23 PM
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A fellow sophisticate
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cowtown, Kansas
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod
My farmer cousins have gotten over $300,000 in federal subsidy payments since 2000. They need some more, to not grow corn, to not grow soybeans, to not grown sorghum.
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Link to site that shows farm subsidy recipients and amounts received.
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05-22-2008, 04:03 PM
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Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
That's why I HATE the practice of putting all sorts of unrelated items on one bill. It makes it difficult for Congress to vote, and it makes it difficult for us taxpayers to accurately analyze any Congresspersons voting record.
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Ditto. It also makes those stupid election year commercials possible, where they accuse someone of having voted against some popular cause, not revealing that the popular item was tacked onto an omnibus spending bill at the last second.
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
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05-22-2008, 04:38 PM
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The cat that will listen
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Valley of the Sun
Gender: Female
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod
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HaHa! Now I can tease my dad about his welfare payments.
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05-22-2008, 04:44 PM
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liar in wolf's clothing
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Didya see where they forgot to print 34 pages of the bill, so they're going to have to pass it all over again?
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05-22-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Just want to throw in that land needs to lay fallow for certain periods of time, plus those lands not farmed means more species of critters have habitat. So some of the subsidies are done for good reasons.
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05-22-2008, 07:29 PM
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Adequately Crumbulent
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cascadia
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
I think the main point of the subsidies is to stabilize the prices of agricultural commodities while at the same time having the capacity to increase food production when necessary.
One of the contributing factors to the great depression was a massive devaluation of agricultural products due to overproduction. Farm subsidies were part of the measures taken at the time to prevent future depressions.
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05-22-2008, 07:45 PM
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you're next
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Gender: Bender
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Re: Fuck Farmers
to note: agriculture fucked our evolution.
see ya at the next big bang!
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paranoid fringe dweller
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05-22-2008, 07:59 PM
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Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Was that an invitation to an orgy?
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
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05-22-2008, 09:21 PM
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Adequately Crumbulent
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cascadia
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
I'm in baby!
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05-22-2008, 09:23 PM
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liar in wolf's clothing
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Just be sure to
The social and emotional justice squad practices safe sex. Safe, dirty, hot, nasty monkey sex.
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05-22-2008, 11:03 PM
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Struggling to stay sober....
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
I really know nothing about the politics behind farm subsidies. What I do know is that my Uncle and Aunt are farmers. They raise cattle, hogs, plant corn and soybean. They BARELY make a living as it is. My uncle is forced to do side work as a mechanic, my aunt sews quilts on the side for extra money. They work their asses off just to make ends meet (OUTRAGEOUS property taxes, feed bills, vet bills, equipment maintenance as well as daily living expenses). They don't draw a weekly check like the rest of us. They're paid twice a year when they take their cattle and hogs to market, and when they harvest their corn and soybeans. For those of you who think farmers have such a sweet deal, walk a mile in their shoes and you'll think differently.
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05-22-2008, 11:40 PM
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Fishy mokey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Okay, I have heard of people farming all kinds of things
Goat farmers, dirt farmers, tobacco farmers, you name it
But fuck farmers?
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05-22-2008, 11:56 PM
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ninja mother
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Iowa
Gender: Female
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilin
I really know nothing about the politics behind farm subsidies. What I do know is that my Uncle and Aunt are farmers. They raise cattle, hogs, plant corn and soybean. They BARELY make a living as it is. My uncle is forced to do side work as a mechanic, my aunt sews quilts on the side for extra money. They work their asses off just to make ends meet (OUTRAGEOUS property taxes, feed bills, vet bills, equipment maintenance as well as daily living expenses). They don't draw a weekly check like the rest of us. They're paid twice a year when they take their cattle and hogs to market, and when they harvest their corn and soybeans. For those of you who think farmers have such a sweet deal, walk a mile in their shoes and you'll think differently.
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Yup, of course things are different now with biofuels pushing the price of corn and beans higher and higher, but it wasn't always that way. Subsidies were necessary for certain farmers, especially your average family farmer, to break even let alone make any money. My dad said that with the higher price of corn in the last year especially the amount of subsidies they had personally gotten went way down, which is what one would expect. Anyway, I really don't believe the price of corn is going to stay this high for too much longer. I think the corn based ethanol boom is slowing.
__________________
Don't make me break out my ninja powers..
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05-23-2008, 12:14 AM
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb
I think the main point of the subsidies is to stabilize the prices of agricultural commodities while at the same time having the capacity to increase food production when necessary.
One of the contributing factors to the great depression was a massive devaluation of agricultural products due to overproduction. Farm subsidies were part of the measures taken at the time to prevent future depressions.
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You are right that the main point was to stabilize, but some of it is also in response to good agricultural practices of letting the land lay fallow, which is in part to help not create another "dustbowl".
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05-23-2008, 12:20 AM
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A fellow sophisticate
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cowtown, Kansas
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb
I think the main point of the subsidies is to stabilize the prices of agricultural commodities while at the same time having the capacity to increase food production when necessary.
One of the contributing factors to the great depression was a massive devaluation of agricultural products due to overproduction. Farm subsidies were part of the measures taken at the time to prevent future depressions.
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I know that, but a lot of the "aid" goes to corporate farms, large agricultural concerns, which don't really need them now. My cousins are incorporated, they farm many thousands of acres of land and aren't hurting, and really haven't had it hard in many decades. Now they're raking it in. Not that I blame them, tomorrow may tell another tale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilin
I really know nothing about the politics behind farm subsidies. What I do know is that my Uncle and Aunt are farmers. They raise cattle, hogs, plant corn and soybean. They BARELY make a living as it is. My uncle is forced to do side work as a mechanic, my aunt sews quilts on the side for extra money. They work their asses off just to make ends meet (OUTRAGEOUS property taxes, feed bills, vet bills, equipment maintenance as well as daily living expenses). They don't draw a weekly check like the rest of us. They're paid twice a year when they take their cattle and hogs to market, and when they harvest their corn and soybeans. For those of you who think farmers have such a sweet deal, walk a mile in their shoes and you'll think differently.
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I was raised by a poor sharecropper who ended up moving to the big city to work in petrochemical plants because farming drove him into bankruptcy. I worked on farms all my teenage years. Even back then, there were some that were just scraping by and there were others that were, again, "raking it in". If my father had somehow managed to remain on the farm, he would probably have been part of that corporate farm I mentioned. They went large and prospered. It's the small farms that struggle, it's the small farms that need subsidies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biochemgirl
Yup, of course things are different now with biofuels pushing the price of corn and beans higher and higher, but it wasn't always that way. Subsidies were necessary for certain farmers, especially your average family farmer, to break even let alone make any money. My dad said that with the higher price of corn in the last year especially the amount of subsidies they had personally gotten went way down, which is what one would expect. Anyway, I really don't believe the price of corn is going to stay this high for too much longer. I think the corn based ethanol boom is slowing.
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My cousins' subsidy payments have dropped from an annual high of $95,000 in 2001 to $25,000 last year. I don't think that's making them poor though, the payments were very likely reduced because they're making too much money.
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05-23-2008, 12:37 AM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: Fuck Farmers
I don't think farmers have it easy by any stretch. It is difficult work. (My grandparents had a very small farm, and my grandfather also worked full time at the gas company. By the time I was a kid, they'd scaled it down to a subsistence thing, with just chickens, some fruit and walnut trees, and something that would probably qualify as a really big garden.)
And while I'm all for small family farms, when it comes to subsidies and such, the small family farm is mostly hype that they trot out for sympathy points. The vast majority of subsidies do not go to small family farms.
Small family farms are probably unprofitable in part because of subsidies that distance consumers from the real costs of food; and because it's hard to compete with big agribusiness--the same reason that it's difficult for woodworkers to compete with big furniture manufacturers and for tailors to compete with sweatshops. Why not subsidize those small family businesses as well?
There are plenty of difficult but non-lucrative professions out there, and there are plenty of families who've been driven out of their industries by competition from corporate operations and outsourcing and all kinds of other "free market" shit. I'd be all about laying some more smackdowns and stopping corporate welfare for big businesses; and for creating more incentives and opportunities for small businesses across the board.
I do understand many of the legitimate reasons for farm subsidies, but as far as the emotional argument goes, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be more sympathetic to families of farmers than I am to families of coal miners or software developers or auto workers.
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05-23-2008, 12:39 AM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Okay, I have heard of people farming all kinds of things
Goat farmers, dirt farmers, tobacco farmers, you name it
But fuck farmers?
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05-23-2008, 02:03 AM
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ninja mother
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Iowa
Gender: Female
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Re: Fuck Farmers
I'm just looking at it from the small family farm point of view because that is my parents right now. I certainly won't deny that there are large farms out there that know how to take advantage of the system.
__________________
Don't make me break out my ninja powers..
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05-23-2008, 02:09 AM
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Pistachio nut
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: South Africa
Gender: Male
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Okay, I have heard of people farming all kinds of things
Goat farmers, dirt farmers, tobacco farmers, you name it
But fuck farmers?
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PEOPLE FARM BUT FUCKS?
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05-23-2008, 02:11 AM
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A3 - authentic anarchist asshole
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Dingfod,
I want to draw out two things you said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod
I know that, but a lot of the "aid" goes to corporate farms, large agricultural concerns, which don't really need them now.
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and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod
It's the small farms that struggle, it's the small farms that need subsidies.
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Could it be that none of the farms actually need the subsidies?
or that all the small farms need is a level playing field by eliminating the subsidies altogether?
I am just throwing out the possibility that the subsidies to the mega-farms are the problem. They create artificial and unfair competition in the farming market making it difficult for the smaller ones to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
There are plenty of difficult but non-lucrative professions out there, and there are plenty of families who've been driven out of their industries by competition from corporate operations and outsourcing and all kinds of other "free market" shit. I'd be all about laying some more smackdowns and stopping corporate welfare for big businesses; and for creating more incentives and opportunities for small businesses across the board.
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Hold on a minute. Corporate welfare and in fact, corporate status itself is not a free market. Confused-conservatives try to pretend it is a free market to hide their welfare and confused-socialists like to beat up the free market by condemning corporate welfare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
I do understand many of the legitimate reasons for farm subsidies, but as far as the emotional argument goes, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be more sympathetic to families of farmers than I am to families of coal miners or software developers or auto workers.
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I do not think you should have any sympathy for one group and not the other. However, maybe those other industries have benefited from state privilege and influence too.
__________________
Fight cyber with cyber and initiate no aggression.
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05-23-2008, 04:39 AM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: Fuck Farmers
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Samuel8
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
There are plenty of difficult but non-lucrative professions out there, and there are plenty of families who've been driven out of their industries by competition from corporate operations and outsourcing and all kinds of other "free market" shit. I'd be all about laying some more smackdowns and stopping corporate welfare for big businesses; and for creating more incentives and opportunities for small businesses across the board.
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Hold on a minute. Corporate welfare and in fact, corporate status itself is not a free market.
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Well, yeah, that's why the scare quotes.
I drive through rural areas pretty regularly (one of which was pretty much leveled today), and they're lousy with the Ron Paul signs. So unless there's some clear ideological division between the farmers who own land adjoining the highway, and those who support farm subsidies, I'm guessing their positions aren't all that consistent.
And farm subsidies do disproportionately benefit big agribusiness over small family farms,* which only serves to further concentrate the business, as the big, more profitable businesses run the smaller farms out of business faster on the backs of their subsidies.
So if farm subsidies were to go away today, yeah, it'd be tough on the little guys for the short term--not just the small farmers, but consumers as well. Change is always hard, though, and likely the family farmers would end up better off in the long term if big agribusiness weren't getting their handouts.
The biggest issue would be the fact that we'd likely become even more dependent on imports, and lose a big part of our farming industry overall. And in terms of our national and even global interests, that would suck. We should have the ability to provide the essentials of life for ourselves. But we could encourage and help sustain local farming by better controlling imports, so US farmers don't have to compete directly with farms that are operating in a completely different economy and a completely different regulatory structure.
*I just linked to The Heritage Foundation!
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