White House: Tell on you Neighbors Here - Page 4

Caligulette · #76 08-07-2009, 02:13 PM

Asking people (she said, knowing full well the conversation has long since been abandoned) to forward hooey mass emails is very different than this:

Said Homeland Security Chief Napolitano

Quote:

In referring to the Fort Dix case, Napolitano praised a Circuit City store clerk who called authorities after one of the men brought in a videotape of them doing target practice for transfer to a DVD.

She claimed that this action demonstrated the need for a “culture of collective responsibility” in which “every individual understands his or her role.” She continued, “You are the ones who know when something is not right in your community.”
In the question-and-answer session that followed Napolitano’s speech, a member of the audience asked her whether she was suggesting that US citizens be trained “from school days on” to “watch more carefully their schoolmates, their co-workers, their families and their neighbors and then more effectively report what they say to some authority.”

The Homeland Security secretary found no problem with this description of a police state, replying that her questioner was “getting the gist of what I’m saying” about the “culture of collective responsibility.”

What was most striking about Napolitano’s presentation was that, more than six months after the coming to office of the Obama administration, there have been no substantial proposals for either scrapping or revising policies initiated under the Bush White House at an agency deeply implicated in attacks on the democratic rights of the American people.

In this, as in its prosecution of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the use of military tribunals and its invocation of “state secrets” to quash court cases challenging domestic spying and extraordinary rendition, the Obama administration is continuing the essential policies of its predecessor, merely with a change in tone.

Maybe, Jerome, if you concentrated on actual threats to democratic rights, keeping things in perspective, you might not be so often taken to task. The illusion of their wanting to do something to counter misinformation by offering an "opportunity" to get those darned email spammers is a far cry from their offer to listen as people rat out their neighbours.

The proposal you posted of forwarding emails is meant to have the effect of showing that they "care", and to give people the idea that they are "doing something".

The proposal I posted is a direct request for a national neighbourhood fink-fest.

It is not that this administration is not following in the footsteps of the previous (and perhaps blazing a few new trails) in re civil rights and the abrogation thereof, it is that you are blinded by seeing *everything* as a potential threat. You lack a sense of scale and perspective. When everything is viewed as a Terrible Threat, very little can be seen for what it actually is.

What this email address is is a palliative - a distraction. "I took part in the health care "debate", I forwarded a bad email and They Cleared That Right Up!" This is very different from, "Hey, these people have (probably legal) guns and they are shooting non-living targets, I'd best turn them in!" And then people are arrested. Possibly held without charges. Maybe subjected to Extraordinary Rendition.

You want your police state? You got it - but not where you're looking.

Watser? · #77 08-07-2009, 02:20 PM

Caligulette · #78 08-07-2009, 02:22 PM

Don't make me cry!

Sauron · #79 08-07-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I was banned from Skepticality blah blah blah

1. You were banned for being a time-wasting troll. All the rest is your self-serving rationalization.

2. Only a few posts before this you were acting all innocent "what boards? what other boards?" when you knew damn well you were banned.

Watser? · #80 08-07-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Hey guys Twitter got DDOS'ed today

oh yeah.

This is why, apparently:

Quote:

A pro-Georgian blogger with accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal and Google's Blogger and YouTube was targeted in a denial of service attack that led to the site-wide outage at Twitter and problems at the other sites on Thursday, according to a Facebook executive.

The blogger, who uses the account name "Cyxymu," (the name of a town in the Republic of Georgia) had accounts on all of the different sites that were attacked at the same time, Max Kelly, chief security officer at Facebook, told CNET News.

"It was a simultaneous attack across a number of properties targeting him to keep his voice from being heard," Kelly said. "We're actively investigating the source of the attacks and we hope to be able to find out the individuals involved in the back end and to take action against them if we can."

Twitter, Facebook Attack Targeted One User - CBS News

erimir · #81 08-07-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caligulette

Asking people (she said, knowing full well the conversation has long since been abandoned) to forward hooey mass emails is very different than this:

Said Homeland Security Chief Napolitano

Quote:

In referring to the Fort Dix case, Napolitano praised a Circuit City store clerk who called authorities after one of the men brought in a videotape of them doing target practice for transfer to a DVD.

She claimed that this action demonstrated the need for a “culture of collective responsibility” in which “every individual understands his or her role.” She continued, “You are the ones who know when something is not right in your community.”
In the question-and-answer session that followed Napolitano’s speech, a member of the audience asked her whether she was suggesting that US citizens be trained “from school days on” to “watch more carefully their schoolmates, their co-workers, their families and their neighbors and then more effectively report what they say to some authority.”

The Homeland Security secretary found no problem with this description of a police state, replying that her questioner was “getting the gist of what I’m saying” about the “culture of collective responsibility.”

What was most striking about Napolitano’s presentation was that, more than six months after the coming to office of the Obama administration, there have been no substantial proposals for either scrapping or revising policies initiated under the Bush White House at an agency deeply implicated in attacks on the democratic rights of the American people.

In this, as in its prosecution of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the use of military tribunals and its invocation of “state secrets” to quash court cases challenging domestic spying and extraordinary rendition, the Obama administration is continuing the essential policies of its predecessor, merely with a change in tone.

[...]
You want your police state? You got it - but not where you're looking.

Of course, there's a line between encouraging people to report crime and encouraging them to spy on people for having the wrong kinds of thoughts or whatever.

If we just hypothetically thought that only theft, assault and murder were illegal, it would make sense to say that everyone should keep a look out and report any such crimes to the police. That wouldn't really be that 1984. What makes it like the Nazis or 1984 is when people are being reported for having Communist ideology or fomenting unreasonable amounts of suspicion.

I don't have a problem with asking citizens to be vigilant and report crimes and genuinely suspicious activities in itself. For example, if you see a neighbor dragging dog carcasses out of his truck (and he doesn't work as a taxidermist or anything like that), that is suspicious activity that would be worthy of reporting. I'm drawing this from the real life example of Tom Dillon, who was actually one of my dad's college roommates (long before he murdered anyone, mind you). He would kill people's pets. Neighbors saw him taking dog carcasses out of his truck, but nobody reported it. But it was one manifestation of his sociopathic tendencies that perhaps if it had been reported, he might've been caught before shooting 5 outdoorsmen.

I'm not sure where you draw the line at what is suspicious enough activity and what is not. And it depends on what kinds of crimes are being reported as well. And it also depends on what kinds of reports the authorities consider worthy of investigation.

I don't know whether Napolitano is encouraging people to cross that line or not.

Watser? · #82 08-07-2009, 08:47 PM

In East Germany a lot of people used to watch West German tv, which was not allowed. I have heard (don't know if it is true) that children in kindergarten were asked to draw the clock from tv so that the authorities could find out which station their parents watched.

Ensign Steve · #83 08-07-2009, 09:00 PM

The West German TV had a different clock? :scratch:

I am confused yet intrigued.

Watser? · #84 08-07-2009, 09:01 PM

Yeah, apparently the West German tv had a very distinct clock.

Stormlight · #85 08-07-2009, 09:36 PM

Watching west German TV was not illegal in the GDR (unless you were in the Army or police force).

It was however frowned upon.

But · #86 08-07-2009, 09:50 PM

There was a lot of stuff then that wasn't technically illegal, but could still get you in a lot of trouble.

Caligulette · #87 08-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Is still.

Jerome · #88 08-09-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erimir

Of course, there's a line between encouraging people to report crime and encouraging them to spy on people for having the wrong kinds of thoughts or whatever.

BINGO!

Jerome · #89 08-13-2009, 01:32 AM

Is it OK for the head of State to request that citizens inform the government about "casual conversations"?

If yes.

Is it OK for the head of State to listen to the "casual conversations" of citizens?

:popcorn:

chunksmediocrites · #90 08-13-2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Is it OK for the head of State to request that citizens inform the government about "casual conversations"?

If yes.

Is it OK for the head of State to listen to the "casual conversations" of citizens?

:popcorn:

From the link you provided in the OP:

Quote:

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

It appears pretty obvious that casual conversation is not what the White House blog is asking people to send, rather chain emails and the like. As has already been covered repeatedly in this thread. Your question "Is it OK for the head of State to request that citizens inform the government about "casual conversations"?" has little resemblance to anything in that blog, as it is not the head of state asking, it's Macon Phillips, Director of New Media for the White House, (i.e. blogger) and what is being asked for is not for casual conversation to be relayed to the blog, let alone to the head of state.

Try a little less straw, man.

Jerome · #91 08-13-2009, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Is it OK for the head of State to request that citizens inform the government about "casual conversations"?

If yes.

Is it OK for the head of State to listen to the "casual conversations" of citizens?

:popcorn:

From the link you provided in the OP:

Quote:

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

It appears pretty obvious that casual conversation is not what the White House blog is asking people to send, rather chain emails and the like. As has already been covered repeatedly in this thread. Your question "Is it OK for the head of State to request that citizens inform the government about "casual conversations"?" has little resemblance to anything in that blog, as it is not the head of state asking, it's Macon Phillips, Director of New Media for the White House, (i.e. blogger) and what is being asked for is not for casual conversation to be relayed to the blog, let alone to the head of state.

Try a little less straw, man.

Try reading what you quote the White House saying.

chunksmediocrites · #92 08-13-2009, 04:13 AM

Try enlightening me to the pertinent quotes you believe say that the head of state wants citizens to report casual conversations.

Jerome · #93 08-13-2009, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

Try enlightening me to the pertinent quotes you believe say that the head of state wants citizens to report casual conversations.

You quoted the White House stating that they wanted rumors about health care reform heard in "casual conversation" sent to them via email.

You are aware that the Head of State is the President and that his office is the White House?

D. Scarlatti · #94 08-13-2009, 04:28 AM

There are conversations and there are conversants. Didn't we go over this already?

Nancy Pelosi said "drowning out opposing views is simply un-American." Fox News reported Pelosi said protesters were un-American. Is that how it works for you as well, JEROME DA GNOME?

chunksmediocrites · #95 08-13-2009, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerome

You quoted the White House stating that they wanted rumors about health care reform heard in "casual conversation" sent to them via email.

No, I quoted the White House Blog post in your OP, which you misinterpreted, or Drudge Report/ Wing-Nut Daily misinterpreted for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerome

You are aware that the Head of State is the President and that his office is the White House?

It is one thing to say that Obama has a responsibility for the actions of those who work in his Administration. It is another thing entirely to say that the White House blog asking for examples of misinformation is Obama asking citizens to report casual conversations against health care reform. You are aware that your shit is weak?

Quote:

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Which is a more reasoned interpretation of what is meant when Macon Phillips uses "them" in the quoted paragraph?

1. disinformation like chain emails
2. casual conversations

Which is a more reasoned interpretation of what is meant when Macon Phillips uses "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform"

1. casual conversations via email or comments posted on the web
2. disinformation as the primary feature of chain email spam or websites whose primary function is disinformation.

The use of 'casual conversation' in the quoted paragraph is clearly a description of how rumors are spread, not a description of what citizens are asked to note. Fuckwit.

Jerome · #96 08-13-2009, 05:41 AM

Make the letters bigger and change colors to hide what you don't want others to read, that way you can "drown out opposing views".

:roflmao:

chunksmediocrites · #97 08-13-2009, 06:07 AM

Avoid answering the questions and pointing at my emphasis because that really makes your argument stronger how?also, nice scare quotes.
Let me know when you actually are able to explain how the White House blog asking for examples of misinformation is Obama asking citizens to report casual conversations against health care reform.

Jerome · #98 08-13-2009, 06:21 AM

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White House

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

zachhcaz22 · #99 08-13-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Quote:

Originally Posted by The White House

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Not once on there do I see a request to report who said it, only what was said. There's a difference between offering to dispel myths and asking for the homes of opposition so they will be easy to "indefinitely detain." It's the exact opposite of what FOX News did with the Democratic town hall meeting schedule. Instead of dispelling myths and, well you know, reporting the news accurately (as their name and slogan would suggest), they want people to show up at Democratic town hall meetings and drown out any and all discussion so that the myths propagate themselves because they cannot be corrected since I'm guessing most people that watch FOX News would not actually listen to Obama's speeches and conferences that say why they're wrong if they would just pay attention to reality.

EDIT: Also on the fact that you're a troll (and I'm feeding it, but whatever I like to argue, it's in my blood): Do you really believe HIV doesn't exist?

Sauron · #**100** 08-13-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEROLL DA TROLL

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Which, even after you citing it several time, still does not provide what chunksmediocrites, myself, and others have asked for:

evidence that the WH wants to know *who*, rather than *what*, is being chattered around the country as nonsense.

Would you like to try again, or just admit another defeat now?