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View Poll Results: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?
Yes, it is OK. 8 29.63%
Is it OK not to punch a Nazi in the head? 9 33.33%
It's OK, but I prefer the genitals or solar plexus. 15 55.56%
Violence is never the answer, unless the question is some kind of Nazi shit. 13 48.15%
No, it is awesome. 9 33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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  #276  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:14 PM
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  #277  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

[postmodɛʀnizmᵊ]

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  #278  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

That'll be quite enough out of you, mockie.

:shakejew:
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  #279  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:25 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
You can even diss his advice and him on spurious grounds and there'd be no harm done. Except maybe to your own self-regard.
Yes, and you can even dismiss my arguments as "spurious" and harmful to my "self-regard" without providing any reason for why they are so.
Sorry, my mistake. erimir. I didn't intend that to look like or be taken as a dismissal of all your arguments or indeed the broader position you have taken over the issues Van Jones raises in the clip. I can see I worded it badly. My bad!

What's your point?

That your point about your not being a politician and therefore not responsible for facilitating Trump's and the GOP's dangerous polarisation of the USA is mistaken. If we engage in the conflict, I believe we share responsibility for the fallout from the manner in which we engage in the conflict.
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  #280  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

I am trying to get at what is actually true about Trump supporters/Republicans, not what is the most politically useful way to talk about them.

Understanding what is going on can be useful for determining how to move forward from there. And I also personally put value on seeking and speaking the truth even if it's not politically useful, although I understand there is a role for politicians who can engage with political opponents without describing them as bluntly as I would. (This is why I don't think I will ever be involved in politics except behind the scenes.)

I would also note that I am not engaging with any Republicans in my discussions on :ff:.

Unless you count Jerome or AML, but they are obviously not good faith interlocutors in the first place.
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  #281  
Old 07-14-2018, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I am trying to get at what is actually true about Trump supporters/Republicans, not what is the most politically useful way to talk about them.
And Jones is trying to get at what is the most politically useful way to talk about Republicans, not just what is actually true about them.

I would also note that I am not engaging with any Republicans in my discussions on :ff:.

Point taken. However, I am assuming you and most other anti-Republicans contributing here also use similar invective elsewhere as a matter of habit, so a discussion of the merits or otherwise of those habits is not out of place at :ff:. Added to which, we influence each other by the tone we use as well as the arguments we make, so even when you are debating with left-wingers it probably helps to avoid the worst of the toxic rhetoric that Jones is condemning in that clip.
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  #282  
Old 07-14-2018, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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I am assuming you and most other anti-Republicans contributing here also use similar invective elsewhere as a matter of habit
I can’t speak for anyone else here, but… no. No, I don’t. I mean, I will with friends and at political blogs where Republicans don’t comment, but in company where I’m not certain of people’s political persuasions, I mostly keep my political comments to bland, nonpartisan denunciations of greed, unequal distributions of power, etc., if I even bring up politics. And as you’ve seen, I’ve written at length about politics for a more general audience where I may have harsh words about Republican politicians, but keep my commentary about Republican voters quite a bit more diplomatic.

People discuss things differently with different audiences. It’s just how humans function. An old bit of writing advice I remember is that each time you add a character to a work of fiction, you’re really adding multiple characters, because you have to alter each other character’s characterisation when they interact with that character. So if you have three characters, and add a fourth character with whom all those three characters interact at some point, then you have four new characters to write. That might be overstated slightly, but it’s still pretty accurate. Just because people act a certain way here doesn’t mean they’ll act that way everywhere.

I didn’t listen to the whole video, but most of Jones’ points seem either obvious, banal, or just wrong. I used to have a lot of respect for him, but he’s gone completely off the deep end in the Trump era, and I think I’ve heard enough to conclude that I don’t need to hear more.
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  #283  
Old 07-15-2018, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
And Jones is trying to get at what is the most politically useful way to talk about Republicans, not just what is actually true about them.
Useful for who?
Has the coddling of republicans actually produced gains for liberals?
It seems like the argument is that if we are nice enough, and tip toe around anything that offends that maybe, just maybe republicans won't beat us when they get home from work. Eventually we will wear them down through niceness and they will realize we are equals, and we must take their abuse and debate it logically and kindly, don't want to trigger another beating, until this magical moment occurs.

Quote:
toxic rhetoric that Jones is condemning in that clip.
Like his clear want but inability to call racists racist because that will hurt their feelings? That bit was one of the most telling when he literally waved his hands about to suggest *cough* racists *cough* but couldn't actually say it. If we are too scared to address the issues head on, then the abuser has won.

The irony here is that since politics are all about emotion and almost nothing about fact, the republicans have shown that angry rabble rousing rhetoric is quite effective at helping your side win. So of course I greatly question anyone who says that that isn't the 'proper way' to win and we should accept the abuse until we win 'properly'. Now I'm not saying we need to go full Trump or anything, but it's clear that many authoritarian republicans only answer to authoritarian views. You are either above them and to be listened to, or below them and to be walked on. There's no equality.

Building a mass of angry people who won't stop until their compatriots are freed from jails and given the right to vote and who will punch or shame anyone who thinks otherwise is exactly what Trump Republicans fear. They are bullies that fear their victim getting a backbone. When one side honestly wants the otherside dead or enslaved, how can there ever be real debate?
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