How is This Possible?

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I know, and I am not trying to frustrate you. Truly. But I have a hard time believing that you still make a case for directed, linear education that includes a canon of specific shit, but you don't know what that looks like. I can't agree with you under these conditions!!

Broadly, I'm just talking about your basic liberal arts. Math, science, and humanities (history, social science, language, literature, art, etc.) Is that what you mean?

Beyond that, I can't tell you specifically what needs to be included in those categories and in what order or anything.

[LadyShea]

Speaking as a self-directed learner who ended up getting quite a lot out of a degree programme.

As would I, I am sure. Unfortunately, however, I have to quantify "quite a lot" to see if it's worth 10's of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of my cherished time. My calculations must also include a risk evaluation...how detrimental to me and mine are my gaps?

If I don't what I need to know, that makes it harder to know how/where to acquire that knowledge. I am pretty good at finding and vetting resources...but what I need is a big book of shit I should know.

[sadie]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I know, and I am not trying to frustrate you. Truly. But I have a hard time believing that you still make a case for directed, linear education that includes a canon of specific shit, but you don't know what that looks like. I can't agree with you under these conditions!!

To survive, a democracy needs educated citizens. A "core subject" (aside from the predictable 3 R's plus history, science, math, etc. ) should be critical thinking skills. In fact, critical thinking should be taught PRIOR to all the other subjects and should begin in kindergarten. For instance, make the kids watch TV commercials and let them figure out how and why they are fraudulent.

I've been a tutor for over 40 years and lived through the 70's "Hey, let the kids learn what they like" philosophy, which resulted in quite a few geniuses, but even more undisciplined, undereducated dolts. People figured out that didn't work, so now we are putting incredible pressure on kids to fulfill educational standards which are sometimes too advanced for them to achieve. I have an 8th grader who is required to read Romeo & Juliet and tutoring him is like teaching him a foreign language. Plus, these kids are tested tested tested which is making them, their parents, and their teachers fairly neurotic.

Oh, I could go on and on, but I'm sure no one wants to hear my tirade.

[lisarea]

OMG sadie. You don't know this forum at all, do you?

One thing I think we can all agree on is that we to hear your tirade.

[LadyShea]

sadie, we've been having this fight for like 4 years. Tirade away.

[livius drusus]

Yeah tirade is our bread and butter here. We hook tirade up to our veins. Tirade is our middle name. Freethought Tirade Forum.

[Crumb]

Freethought Tirade Forum

That has a nice ring to it.

[sadie]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

sadie, we've been having this fight for like 4 years. Tirade away.

Which tirade you prefer?

1. The fact that children are being medicated for perfectly normal behavior? The fact that 1/5 of all adolescent boys are diagnosed as ADD is criminal.

2. Related to #1...The fact that schools ignore the different rates of intellectual/emotional/social maturation in students and define those who are progressing more slowing as "deficient" or worse yet, "disabled". By doing so, expectations by both teacher, parents, and the students themselves decline. (see "Expectancy Effect")

3. The over-dependence on standardized tests to measure performance.

4. The fact that both the curriculum and teaching methods haven't changed in 50 years, despite the radical transformation of society because of technology. Yes, kids must learn traditional subjects, but added to them should be subjects such as psychology, sociology, basic economics, computer technology, research methods, political science, ethics, and as I mentioned previously, CRITICAL THINKING.

5. Kids should be required to have 45 minutes a day of recreation and exercise.

6. No cell phones in the classroom from 9-3. If there is an emergency, the school can be contacted.

7. Okay, this is controversial and is sure to meet with disapproval, but I am in favor of a variety of school uniforms. Not just one, but a selection of them. Girls shouldn't be allowed to dress like hookers, boys shouldn't be allowed to wear their pants below their hips. Same goes for teachers.

If I reflect a bit, I'm sure I could come up with some other criticisms, but I am rushed today....quarterlies this week!

[Dingfod]

Are you for or against #5 and #6?


I have LAOADDDTI* and therefor are unable to stick around for an answer.


*Late Adulthood Onset Attention Deficit Disorder Due To Internet

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by sadie

Which tirade you prefer?
1. The fact that children are being medicated for perfectly normal behavior? The fact that 1/5 of all adolescent boys are diagnosed as ADD is criminal.

This is a good place to start, and I would start by asking how do they test for this and determine that a boy is ADD. Do they give the boy some standardized clinical test for this, or do they test with something that the boy is actually interested in. My grandson will get one of the Lego kits for some specailized product with a 20 page (or more) instruction book, and he will meticulously go through each step, and carefully pick the right part and try to put it into the right place. This can continue for an hour if necessary for him to complete the item. If I put on a video that he asks to watch, he can sit for almost a half an hour, and it seems like he doesn't even blink. He has recently been asking to see programs from a series called "Inside Natures Giants" where they disect large animals to figure out how they work, and he then remembers what they found. BTW he's 7 years old and at that age when I got a plastic model kit, I'd start trying to fit it together without even looking at the instructions.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by sadie

Which tirade you prefer?
6. No cell phones in the classroom from 9-3. If there is an emergency, the school can be contacted.

I can't relate to this one at all, when I was teaching we had stone hammers, chisels, and stone tablets.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by sadie

Which tirade you prefer?
3. The over-dependence on standardized tests to measure performance.

Standardized tests can only measure standardized preformance and cannot measure specialized abilities that are common in most students. Schools need to measure the individual against that individuals capability and previous preformance.

I remember a story told by Leo Buscaglia, when he started school he could barely speak english so they deemed him retarded and put him in special education. At home they spoke Italian and he could speak it fluently, in fact he was very intelligent, but the school could not determine this because it didn't have the capability to evaluate him in Italian.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by sadie

Which tirade you prefer?
7. Okay, this is controversial and is sure to meet with disapproval, but I am in favor of a variety of school uniforms. Not just one, but a selection of them. Girls shouldn't be allowed to dress like hookers, boys shouldn't be allowed to wear their pants below their hips. Same goes for teachers.

Yes uniforms are controversial and I do not approve, but I do approve of a sensible dress code. Right after Columbine my daughters school instituted a dress code, and specified certain kinds of coats that were not allowed to be worn to school. Two factors here, the school was undergoing renovations and was not adequatelly heated, so my daughter wore her coat through out the day. The particular coat did not fit any of the specified coats that were prohibited, so when she got flack for wearing the coat during the day, I took her side, and even spoke to the school superintendent on her behalf. For 3 years I fought for my daughters rights with the school, and the last year she was home schooled, I had had enough. At one point they were going to require her to come to school for a Saturday work session, and I told them where to stick that idea, I was not going to drive her to school on a saturday. My daughter spent a lot of time in detention after school, but she said it was OK as it gave her time to do her homework, so when I finally picked her up she was free for the evening.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by sadie

Oh, I could go on and on, but I'm sure no one wants to hear my tirade.

Sadie, triade away, if you haven't figured it out yet, you state it and I will probably back you up. I taught through the 70's and there was a lot of shit that was presented as sound educational policy.

[sadie]

Originally Posted by thedoc

This is a good place to start, and I would start by asking how do they test for this and determine that a boy is ADD. Do they give the boy some standardized clinical test for this, or do they test with something that the boy is actually interested in. My grandson will get one of the Lego kits for some specailized product with a 20 page (or more) instruction book, and he will meticulously go through each step, and carefully pick the right part and try to put it into the right place. This can continue for an hour if necessary for him to complete the item. If I put on a video that he asks to watch, he can sit for almost a half an hour, and it seems like he doesn't even blink. He has recently been asking to see programs from a series called "Inside Natures Giants" where they disect large animals to figure out how they work, and he then remembers what they found. BTW he's 7 years old and at that age when I got a plastic model kit, I'd start trying to fit it together without even looking at the instructions.

ADD is determined from a behavioral checklist filled out by parents and teachers, which is then reviewed by a psychologist and/or psychologist. If the behaviors (ex. "Student squirms in chair",) meet specific criteria, then the student is diagnosed as ADD or ADHD. Boys are much more likely to be placed in this category for several reasons: slower to mature, more active, learning style incompatible with the curriculum.

Here's a great article that explains these problems in more detail.

The Problem with School? . Boys in School . Raising Boys . PBS Parents | PBS

Once, I took one of my ADD nephew's pills and it was effective. I did concentrate better. Of course, I have the same results with amphetamines or 5 cups of coffee.

[thedoc]

Sadie, I looked at the article and also looked at the ADHD check list, and many of the items on the list are what I would consider normal for a young boy. This one in particular,

"Does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace"

is very much dependent on the nature of the activity, if a boy were told to clean his room, I would expect this to be the case. If a young boy followed through and got his room cleaned up in a timely manner, I might then think something else was wrong. But if this were the case with every new toy that he was capable of assembling if he tried, it might be cause for alarm.

[specious_reasons]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Sadie, I looked at the article and also looked at the ADHD check list, and many of the items on the list are what I would consider normal for a young boy. This one in particular,

"Does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace"

is very much dependent on the nature of the activity, if a boy were told to clean his room, I would expect this to be the case. If a young boy followed through and got his room cleaned up in a timely manner, I might then think something else was wrong. But if this were the case with every new toy that he was capable of assembling if he tried, it might be cause for alarm.

Normal behavior would be to sometimes fail to finish schoolwork, or sometimes leave chores incomplete. It is a possible indication of ADHD if the child consistently or regularly fails to complete tasks, such that it impacts the quality of his life.

As my wife described DSM IV to me, everybody sometimes has these symptoms, it's only when these problems occur frequently or extremely should it be an indicator of a disorder.

I think that's where a lot of false diagnosis comes from - the person making that diagnosis is seeing "worse than normal" and assigning it as "dysfunctional."

[curses]

Personal story time!!! You have been warned.

Man this has me looking through all my old doctors' records. Apparently I had issues with "gross motor ability" in addition to ADD. I've got two old notes from my second grade teacher. I have vague memories of second grade, the strongest is being constantly sent to sit away from the class. According to the notes from teacher and doctor I was extremely disruptive in class. I have mentions of all sorts of tests from vision and hearing to a sort of physical therapy thing. I don't remember that. I then got put on Ritalin. Interesting side note-my brother was on Adderall around the same age for a bit. It turned out he was extremely smart and just bored. That asshole took all the smart and left me with the weird behavioral disorders. They thought I might need the higher level classes too so I was tested for TAG (talented and gifted-precursor to AP classes) but I couldn't focus long enough to finish the test. I still remember the absolute-depression? (Some really low feeling I can't put a name to) when I was told I didn't pass.

So here's a note:

Originally Posted by my second grade teacher

Dear [curses' mom],
I've noticed an improvement in [curses'] behavior. She's more "in tune" to what's going on around her. She's finishing morning work (except reading), She's coloring alot[sic] but not while she's in her own world. Simply, she's working and responding more in reality not fantasy. She stays on task which is keeping her through her work. Its when she's finshed that she finds the coloring, cutting to do. That's when she forgets that she has reading to do.

That was the first week after Ritalin. The next note is dated a week later and discusses how well I've done and how moving me back with the rest of the class has presented no issues. I'm so proud of 8 year old me. There are more notes, just progress reports really. And report cards. I went from being a straight F student to being a straight A one within a quarter (fun curses fact-I was held back in first grade, got sent to a special school for kids with behavioral disorders and did poorly there too so I got sent back to regular old public school.)

I wish I had the records of when I was taken off of Ritalin, it was in 7th grade. I went from being A's and B's to C's, D's and the occasional F pretty much in the span of a week. God I hated middle school. I constantly got picked on because I spent most of my time drawing and daydreaming (I even had a science teacher yell at me in the middle of class because I made a tape ball. I'd never felt so small in my life as I did in that moment. The people in the class told their friends and my life got that much worse.) I almost didn't graduate high school because I just couldn't keep it together long enough to study or finish assignments.

What made it worse was my mom was so insistant that I was the problem that I suffered a bit of verbal abuse because she thought I was doing this to spite her. She can still be an insufferable bitch when the old behaviors rear their head in her presence. And they do.

I still don't know if what I have/had is ADD. I've been tested for it recently and was told I don't have enough of the markers anymore. But something's still there, imagine feeling a mental fog always with you. Some days it's so thick it feels almost tangible. You want to have an in depth conversation about something but you just can't remember all the points the other person made. It's hard to find words in public, especially when stress is high, and your brain constantly wanders off. If I read a story, many times I'll latch on to a piece of what I've read and misunderstand the rest of the story. That was always embarrassing in school. I ramble a lot in real life, I don't look people in the face when I speak to them-I tend to look around. That's why I love the interwebz. I can take time, edit my posts, go back and reread posts to make sure what I have to say is coherent. It's my favorite form of communication now as I don't come off sounding like a loony. This post has taken me about an hour to write because of the revisions to make it coherent.

This is something I don't often talk about because so few people can see it from my side. I don't want any more suggestions, hints, tips, etc. from people who have just read about it somewhere or have a brother/sister/cousin who has it. (love you guys, really) I have quite a few coping mechanisms for the worst of the behaviors (I still have a nasty tendency to drift off into my own little world).

[LadyShea]

Though ADD/ADHD may be overdiagnosed and drugs may be overprescribed, that in no way means there aren't actual cases of ADD/ADHD where drugs are absolutely indicated.

[curses]

Not poking at you, just wanted to share.

[LadyShea]

Oh yeah I was just saying on accounta...not just a few people go over the "overprescribed" cliff in to the land of claiming there are no legit cases of attention disorders and that drugs shouldn't even exist and that kind of pisses me off. Seems like Ritalin helped you and it has helped others.

Anyway I don't really know how to make my point so just me talking about things.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I've posted this before but I'm doing it again and none of you can stop me. This is passage from the great If On A Winter's Night a Traveller, by Italo Calvino.

I will have you know that I had never heard of this thing, despite it's having been referenced on this forum in no fewer than 15 posts (now 16) over 8 years, but your excerpt intrigued me so I kindled it and now I am reading it. Good stuff!

show spoiler

Great books....*not* good, but great!
Condensed Classics.
Help me think of a word...
Favorites - Page 7
Postmodernist Bullshit-artistry. - Page 2
Measured Discourse
How to tell if you're a pomo - Page 3
What are you reading? - Page 66
BBC Literacy Questionnaire - Page 2
What are you reading? - Page 82
What are you reading? - Page 82
How to tell if you're a pomo - Page 13
What are you reading? - Page 83
Miscellany - Page 185
How is This Possible?
How is This Possible? - Page 3 ... pomo alert!

show spoiler

NINE of those are liv's!

[Janet]

I guess it's time for a personal story of my own, though not nearly as heart-tugging as Curses.

Most of you know by now that I'm a reformed/recovering/ex vampirologist. I started studying vampire myths in high school, which I pretty much hated as it was stupid busy work. When I graduated I looked around at the reasons my fellow students were going to college and didn't like them. So, perverse non-conformist that I am, I chose not to go.

For the next seven years I worked crap jobs and was an auto-didact. Naturally I read everything I could find on vampire myths, as well as many other myths and anything else that caught my interest. At one point I read a book on vampires and realized that I had found exactly one sentence of new information in the whole book, and it wasn't the first time. I decided that I'd pretty much learned all there was to learn about the "what" of vampire myths, so I decided to start researching the "why".

I came up with a few theories and knew I would need to study psychology, mythology, folklore and possible other things to learn what I needed. I headed out to the nearest Barnes and Noble with my best friend, but instead of hanging out in the mythology section, I went to the psychology section instead. I was completely daunted. It was huge and I had no idea where to start. That was the moment I realized that I needed to go to college and have someone guide me through the subject.

Which is what I did, got a degree in social psychology and took as many courses as I could in anthropology of religion and religious studies as well. While doing that, I was also reading quite a bit on goddess religions, books like When God was a Woman and The Language of the Goddess for my book on women in vampire myths. I think the first time a professor taught me something that truly challenged my self-discovered knowledge was when my Anthropology of Religion professor explained that Hindu culture clearly shows that there is no correlation between worship of goddesses and equality for women, much less matriarchy. I looked up at her, and I probably looked like I'd just been struck by lightning, and said, "Are you telling me that the ancient, matriarchal goddess cultures are just a feminist fairy tale?" Naturally she said yes and I read everything after that in a much more critical fashion. So yes, guided learning is very important.

(OK, this is weird, as I was trying to word that last sentence in my head, a patron in reference's voice raised enough to be audible for just the words, "A matriarchal culture" and then immediately got too quiet for me to hear.)

[Ensign Steve]

Nailed it!

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

I will have you know that I had never heard of this thing, despite it's having been referenced on this forum in no fewer than 15 posts (now 16) over 8 years, but your excerpt intrigued me so I kindled it and now I am reading it. Good stuff!

I thought for sure I had reached Calvino saturation on and that no plug could ever bear fruit again. Bless you for ignoring me eight times so I could get a massive payoff rush the ninth.

Enjoy! My advice to you is when shit starts getting cray cray, and it will, just roll with it. Don't try to keep track of things. Be Ludmilla, not Lotaria.