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  #51  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

It depends on whether your PE teacher tells you to run a mile a day or to run a mile during practice. What if you're on two teams that have back-to-back practice. Do you think the coach of your second team will let you sit out a mile run just because the coach of your first team made you run a mile too? All the coaches I've known would laugh in my face and make me run two miles for even suggesting it.
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  #52  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

There is a different relationship between the Doctor and the Teacher to you. If you want to count the mile run in class as your prescribed mile, fine. Just the same as if you wrote something independently which is unpublished. If you tell the Teacher, I already ran a mile this morning, that doesn't count.
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  #53  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

To use a business analogy, if a client hires you to create a design for them that is customized, it is unethical to present to them another design you did for another client as though it was made for them.
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  #54  
Old 01-19-2011, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by Demimonde View Post
There is a different relationship between the Doctor and the Teacher to you.
Right, I used it for that reason. If I can cover two differing assignments, perfectly, with the same work, and am inclined to do so, then I do not understand how that is an ethical question.

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Just the same as if you wrote something independently which is unpublished.
Isn't that what we are discussing? Are all university writing assignments "published"?

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If you tell the Teacher, I already ran a mile this morning, that doesn't count.
Not what I said at all. I simply use the same mile for two different assignments if I can do so. I have run the mile right then for PE. I have run a mile today as per doctor's orders.

You mentioned in chat a pertinent example, I think. You have two classes American Lit and Women's Lit. At the beginning of the courses you are told you will be writing a paper that semester and given whatever the parameters or guidelines or requirements of that paper are. You design a single paper that perfectly meets the requirements for both classes. You work hard and produce a well researched and beautifully written piece that would get an A in both classes. How is turning that paper in to both unethical or unfair?

You can make a case for it being icky to you. You can make a case for it not being in the spirit of the reason for education, or whatever, but I still don't think it can be deemed unethical.
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  #55  
Old 01-19-2011, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
If my PE teacher tells me to run a mile, and my doctor just told me to run a mile a day, is it unethical to count that PE run mile as my doctor prescribed mile for the day?
No, but the doctor didn't tell you to run a mile right then, for him, he told you to run a mile each day. If he asked you to run a mile for a diagnostic, and you said you had run a mile earlier, it wouldn't matter. He would want one then, or on a different appointment if he was worried about the strain.

If your teacher told you to "write a paper this semester" without any further direction, then it would be equivalent. But your teacher doesn't tell you that, they tell you to write a paper for them, with a specific prompt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
You mentioned in chat a pertinent example, I think. You have two classes American Lit and Women's Lit. At the beginning of the courses you are told you will be writing a paper that semester and given whatever the parameters or guidelines or requirements of that paper are. You design a single paper that perfectly meets the requirements for both classes. You work hard and produce a well researched and beautifully written piece that would get an A in both classes. How is turning that paper in to both unethical or unfair?
I think this would be acceptable if you discussed it with the teachers, and you went above and beyond what either prompt said individually.

But the fact is that you have avoided work by picking two classes with compatible assignments and have done less work than other students for the same grade. You also have purposely limited your educational possibilities by limiting yourself to generalities that can satisfy more than one class, when you could perhaps be better served by exploring things that aren't as compatible with other classes.

It's not unethical if you view school as a business transaction, but the school does not view it that way, they view it as a pursuit of learning. And as a student you are bound by their rules (and this is part of the price of attendance - you agree to follow their rules), and thus you are breaking the rules you have agreed to follow if you do that.

Perhaps you could argue that those shouldn't be the rules, but it remains that they are the rules and that students agree to follow them. Unfortunately, the rules are not designed to minimize academic work for the students, and I doubt they ever will be.

Also, you mentioned earlier that you have a dislike for busy work. I agree that I dislike busy work. Rote repetition may be necessary for some number of students, but I require much less than other students, and I don't think that all students should be forced to engage in it. Buuut, I don't think that writing papers qualifies as the type of work that you could consider "busy work".
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  #56  
Old 01-19-2011, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demimonde View Post
There is a different relationship between the Doctor and the Teacher to you.
Right, I used it for that reason. If I can cover two differing assignments, perfectly, with the same work, and am inclined to do so, then I do not understand how that is an ethical question.
Then you would very promptly face academic sanction and likely expulsion. I don't know how to make the underlying reasons any clearer than they've already been made in this thread. This is not a business arrangement where efficiency and the final product are supreme. Here the value inheres in the process. The final product is not the goal. In the overwhelming majority of cases, undergraduate students have no new insights to offer. Their papers are of no value to the scholarly community. Their only value is that which the student learns, in terms of facts and skills, from the process of writing them. Re-using prior work to avoid completing a new assignment, in addition to being a dishonest misrepresentation, adds no value and defeats the goal of the assignment and the process. Honestly I cannot see how this is not comprehensible.

Last edited by ChuckF; 01-19-2011 at 01:09 AM.
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  #57  
Old 01-19-2011, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Analogies really kind of suck.

I don't mean just these ones specifically. It's just the nature of analogies to fall apart, and I think a lot of the crosstalking right here is because of all the analogizin' going on.

Reusing papers is unethical in academics because academics have widely adopted that as an ethical guideline. It's cheating to reuse papers when reusing papers is prohibited, which it almost always is.

I'm kind of defensive about liberal arts education because a lot of people do seem to discount it from a vocational or directly practical perspective. You know, that stuff about English majors working at McDonald's and stuff. But the core of a liberal arts education is not vocational, and in some ways, it does seem inefficient and impractical. (I disagree with that.) The point, though, is that a liberal arts education is designed to teach you how to think as much as it is to teach the specific subject at hand. And the papers you turn in are really just examples and exercises that show how you're able to think through a topic. It's very important that you do a lot of different ones because the point isn't just to produce a work product, but as an exercise.

The reasoning behind their adopting that as an ethical guideline and as a spelled out proscription are probably:

1. Liberal arts education is at least as much about the learning process as it is about the final product. (lol it's a journey, not a destination!)

2. Academic credits represent in part a body of work and a learning progression. So if you have academic credits for a women's studies class and an American literature class, that represents two discrete learning processes, including original work in each. If you are getting unique credits for unique courses, it's expected that you've gotten those based on unique work, and for a school to allow students to count the same work toward multiple different credits would be a kind of implicit misrepresentation of that student's achievements.

3. Papers are assigned under constraints, not just on topic and presentation, but time. If you're reusing one paper for several classes simultaneously, or if you're resubmitting a paper you've already done in the past, you're not working under the same constraints as your classmates, which gives you an unfair advantage, and misrepresents your abilities. And that also reflects badly on the institution that would allow it.
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  #58  
Old 01-19-2011, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

As fascinating as it has been to read, this thread seems to have reached an impasse. Time for some comic relief.
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  #59  
Old 01-19-2011, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
But the fact is that you have avoided work by picking two classes with compatible assignments and have done less work than other students for the same grade. You also have purposely limited your educational possibilities by limiting yourself to generalities that can satisfy more than one class, when you could perhaps be better served by exploring things that aren't as compatible with other classes.
Yeah, well it's my money and my education, so how you feel about my choices is irrelevant (general I and you here, not personal you and I)

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It's not unethical if you view school as a business transaction, but the school does not view it that way, they view it as a pursuit of learning.
Last I checked universities provide services in exchange for money. That is a business transaction.

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And as a student you are bound by their rules (and this is part of the price of attendance - you agree to follow their rules), and thus you are breaking the rules you have agreed to follow if you do that.
We weren't discussing rules, we were discussing ethics. If the rule is "you can't use the same work for two different classes even if it satisfies the requirements for both" then that's the rule agreed to and I would not argue in favor of breaking it. The breaking of the rule is the unethical part.

ETA: Sorry I got interrupted in the middle of this post. Busy work is also subjective, but to me it's something redundant, unnecessary to furthering my goals, or serves no discernible purpose. You mentioned rote memorization as busy work for you, and few posts down I mentioned some circumstances under which I would deem paper writing as busy work.

Last edited by LadyShea; 01-19-2011 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

You know, sometimes you sit a course just to get a certificate to show your employer you can do whatever it is your certificate says you can do. Learning is laudable; it's not always what you want.
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  #61  
Old 01-19-2011, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
It's not unethical if you view school as a business transaction, but the school does not view it that way, they view it as a pursuit of learning.
They don't all view it this way...
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  #62  
Old 01-19-2011, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Why not take the middle ground and cover a different aspect of the same material. Cuts down your background reading and research and is much more ethical academically.
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  #63  
Old 01-19-2011, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Then you would very promptly face academic sanction and likely expulsion. I don't know how to make the underlying reasons any clearer than they've already been made in this thread.
Smoking marijuana is illegal, and many underlying reasons are presented for it being illegal. Many people feel that smoking marijuana is unethical, and offer many underlying reasons that they believe it is unethical. Does that mean those reasons are objectively rational or those opinions shared by everyone?

It certainly appears that you and others feel that the reasons presented make perfect sense and that the rules or agreements or understandings are acceptable and embraced. I simply don't find the arguments for there being a rule about it compelling or convincing.

If the whole discussion is that breaking agreed to rules is unethical, then I agree.

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This is not a business arrangement where efficiency and the final product are supreme. Here the value inheres in the process. The final product is not the goal.
I thought I had been very clear about my objection to this line of reasoning, but maybe not. So I'll ask a question. How can you, or anyone, say what the value and goal is for someone that isn't you?

Quote:
In the overwhelming majority of cases, undergraduate students have no new insights to offer. Their papers are of no value to the scholarly community. Their only value is that which the student learns, in terms of facts and skills, from the process of writing them. Re-using prior work to avoid completing a new assignment, in addition to being a dishonest misrepresentation, adds no value and defeats the goal of the assignment and the process. Honestly I cannot see how this is not comprehensible.
It's not comprehensible because writing papers is not the only way to learn facts and skills. For some individuals it may not be the optimal way. Some people have the facts and skills the writing process imparts, already, and would benefit more spending that time doing something else. For them writing another paper is redundant. *Writing is easy and enjoyable for some and they don't have to work hard at all to churn out multiple excellent papers, and it's a difficult and stressful struggle for others and they take a long time. Are those who find it easy and fast due to natural ability being "unfair" because they don't have the same issues with time management? *

It's not comprehensible because there is no reason for me to accept the assertion that the process is universally necessary, or universally optimal, or universally beneficial.

Again though, one should follow the rules they have agreed to.

* this also addresses this point of lisarea's
Quote:
Papers are assigned under constraints, not just on topic and presentation, but time. If you're reusing one paper for several classes simultaneously, or if you're resubmitting a paper you've already done in the past, you're not working under the same constraints as your classmates, which gives you an unfair advantage, and misrepresents your abilities. And that also reflects badly on the institution that would allow it.

Last edited by LadyShea; 01-19-2011 at 05:49 AM.
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  #64  
Old 01-19-2011, 07:17 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

There are two different claims here, and they are easily confused. One claim is that 'double-dipping' is unethical because it's against the rules. LS says she has no issue with that claim, and neither do I.

The other claim seems to be that 'double-dipping' is against the rules because it's unethical. In order to justify this claim it is necessary to explain what is wrong with it in principle. LS says she isn't satisfied by any of the explanations put forward so far. Me neither.

Several people have said that it is unfair on the other students. For example (and I'm not singleing Chuck out here, just using his post to stand for all):
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
And as I've noted, there is an issue of basic fairness that would reward this hypothetical student for his re-use of a prior work product, while other students who did new work - in keeping with the spirit of the assignment and education in general - would incur costs in time and effort.
If academic qualifications were merely a reward for effort, this would make sense, but they aren't. They are intended as a mark of attainment; a proof that a certain level of competence has been achieved.

Of course, in order to achieve the required level of competence the student must put in some time, and a first-class degree will require her to spend more time on her assignments than a third would. But that doesn't mean that it would be fair to withhold a first from a student who achieves that level, merely because she put in less time than one who has worked longer but has achieved less.

To put it in management science terms, there's a crucial difference between the inputs to and the outputs of the process of education. A wise manager will measure the outputs if she wants her process to deliver something of real value.

I'm not aware that British Universities award their degrees on the basis of the inputs to the process. Their exams and assignments are all designed to test the outputs, and the students get graded according to the standard of work they eventually produce, I think.

For this reason, it is often possible to submit a previously achieved qualification as an alternative to sitting one or more papers that other students are required to pass. No one suggests that this is unfair on those others. On the contrary, it would be unfair to assess them as highly as the previously qualified student unless they show they have learned the material she has already mastered.

I see this resubmission of previous work as being a parallel to the idea of course credits which gain exemption from attendance to certain classes and from sitting certain papers.

Are US Universities really so focussed on the inputs to their teaching process rather than the outputs, so that their degrees are awarded on the basis of time served rather than progress made? That seems to me to be the hidden implication of this "it's unfair to others" explanation.
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  #65  
Old 01-19-2011, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Last I checked universities provide services in exchange for money. That is a business transaction.
A large part of the service provided is the opportunity to receive a qualification from an institution with a reputation for high academic standards. A degree from Harvard is worth a lot more than from some unaccredited run-out-of-a-garage degree-by-mail scam. Ethics aside, from a purely businesslike perspective, I'd be pissed off if I found my university was devaluing the degree I've both paid and worked for by not maintaining the standards expected by academics, governments, accrediting agencies and employers.
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  #66  
Old 01-19-2011, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

What if the person writing the paper is a vegetarian pedophile who runs a puppy mill?

I kid! I just never expected this thread to get heated. Who knew paper writing was so controversial?

For the record I started this thread because I wrote a decent paper on the ethics of eating meat for an English Composition class and it occurred to me that it would also pertain to any class that covers ethics. I had heard of self-plagiarism before but I left it out of the title and OP because it seemed oxymoronic to me. However I understand the rationale now and it makes sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyshea
Some people have the facts and skills the writing process imparts, already, and would benefit more spending that time doing something else.
As I understand it writing papers is as much about research, composition and conforming to standards as it is about communicating ideas, and I don't think these are skills anyone is born with. I always thought I was a natural talent when it came to writing (I heard that often enough growing up) but frankly I didn't know what I didn't know until I took an English composition class. Now I'm looking forward to English Comp II.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyshea
How can you, or anyone, say what the value and goal is for someone that isn't you?
I think the point is that everyone who participates in academia agrees to adhere to certain standards of behavior, and that those standards are broadly, if not universally, understood. For example, my school expressly condemns "Academic Dishonesty" (sec 2.A) but doesn't specifically call out double-dipping or self-plagiarism. Still, note that the description says these are "guidelines to assist students in avoiding academic dishonesty". The rule/standard is don't be dishonest and some examples of dishonesty are included. If I have any reason to believe that my profs will disapprove of my turning in the same paper for multiple assignments, I'm being dishonest.
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  #67  
Old 01-19-2011, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
My point is that at least some percentage of students are in the class specifically to get a grade and get closer to a degree. They have different goals than others and they hold to different values. Instructors, as humans, also vary in their reasons for being there and in giving the assignments and their short and long term goals.

What I am hearing here is that different viewpoints are wrong, that choosing methods that meet one's personal goals or values, but that differ from others, are wrong. I take some issue with that.
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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Yeah, well it's my money and my education, so how you feel about my choices is irrelevant (general I and you here, not personal you and I)

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It's not unethical if you view school as a business transaction, but the school does not view it that way, they view it as a pursuit of learning.
Last I checked universities provide services in exchange for money. That is a business transaction.
The university conferring the degree has a say in it, too, though. It's their name on that piece of paper you're waving around saying, "look, I have my degree!" They don't want a bunch of people who haven't learned to think or write or research thoroughly running around saying they were educated at their place. They're the ones who get to set the standards of what it takes to earn a degree from them.

You can certainly purchase a degree with cash at some schools like Excelsior, and those degrees are worth less in a business or employment setting than a degree from a "real" school specifically because people know that the person didn't have to work or learn anything to earn it. (Or, what fragment said.)

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Originally Posted by Demimonde View Post
I think it is the ethics of the thing that has you hung up.

So to get a grade, a student must complete x, y, and z, which they agree to do.

Student 1 spends their time doing the work, completes x, y, and z, and receives a grade.

Student 2 spends less time, completes x, x, and x, and receives the same grade.

Is that fair? Both students agreed to the terms that they were to do x,y, and z. Only Student 1 completed the work. Student 2 portrayed that they had done y and z, while in actuality they did not.

Now compound that over the four years and 120 hours it takes to get a degree. At graduation Student 1 did all the work for that degree. Student 2 only did a third of what Student 1 did, but is getting the same degree.

Is that fair?
For me, I don't even care what's fair for the other students. Fuck them, it's dog-eat-dog out here. But I do care about being honest when representing myself. If I say I have a degree in X from Y university, I expect whoever is looking at the degree to understand that I did all the work required to get it, that I learned everything the university expected me to learn, and that I really earned it.
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  #68  
Old 01-19-2011, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

The whole argument seems to have come down to "that's the rule/standard agreed to". I value integrity so wouldn't exhort anyone to be dishonest.

I also value autonomy and object to a standard that seems to me inflexible...that doesn't account for individual circumstances, abilities, or creativity...especially in an institution that supposedly fosters independence. The whole "unfair" argument is especially baffling, I don't even know how to address that.

I have never attended nor have plans to attend university, and those of you that have and do seem to think this is a reasonable standard to impose and adhere to. I think as Janet said we are probably at an impasse.

Last edited by LadyShea; 01-19-2011 at 04:40 PM.
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  #69  
Old 01-19-2011, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
I also value autonomy and object to a standard that seems to me inflexible...that doesn't account for individual circumstances, abilities, or creativity...especially in an institution that supposedly fosters independence.
There are already systems in place to meet individual circumstances. If you're not going to be finished with a paper, despite the best will in the world, by the set date, then you can get an extension. If you can't think of an original thesis topic, you can see the professor during office hours. Most professors I've known would bend over backwards for their students to make sure that they can fulfill the requirements of the course. But fundamentally, they are all there to evaluate you on the work you do for their course, not for anybody else's. If you turn in papers written for other courses as if they were written for the current course, then you have a patchwork quilt of work instead of a barometer for your progress in the class.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
The whole argument seems to have come down to "that's the rule/standard agreed to".
OK, let's try a different example. Every course I've ever done is really strict about citing stuff correctly. I'm not talking about citing stuff at all, I'm talking about correctly and exactly following the stated citation style, down to having the right bits italicised and punctuation in the correct places. Why is this? If the ostensible purpose of citation is purely to show that the student has done some research and where they've used the material in their writing, then being so strict is unnecessary. The thing is, that's not the only purpose. Students are also asked to write in such a way that shows they can adhere to the accepted standards of academic writing. The standards might seem more strict than necessary for educational purposes because they were designed for published material. IMO it makes good sense to get students to work to the best practice and ethical standards that pertain in the fields they are heading towards.
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  #71  
Old 01-19-2011, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Many students believe that the purpose of higher education is to learn a specific set of skills that will be necessary for future employment. This is not an ignoble goal.

But the overwhelming majority of academics see the purpose of higher education as improving the person -- teaching him or her to be a better thinker, for instance. In my experience, most 4-year colleges and universities will tell you right up front that the purpose of education is to improve the person. Heck, quite a lot of them feature this very prominently in their recruiting material.



As such, most academics find the "I'm in school so I can get a job" attitude in students to be intensely irritating. Relatedly, the attitude in some students that higher education is simply a series of hoops to jump through in order to get a degree is quite vexing to most academics. The reason such an attitude in students is so irritating is because academics regard such students as having missed the entire point of higher education.

"If that's what you're interested in, then why are you wasting your time and money here? Why not just go to a technical school instead?" they'll probably wonder.



If any student makes the mistake of saying something like "I pay your salary" or some such thing in one of my classes, I quickly and very pointedly remind them that they do no such thing. "You do not pay my salary; you pay for the privilege of attending my class. That's something very different."
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  #72  
Old 01-19-2011, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
The whole argument seems to have come down to "that's the rule/standard agreed to". I value integrity so wouldn't exhort anyone to be dishonest.

I also value autonomy and object to a standard that seems to me inflexible...that doesn't account for individual circumstances, abilities, or creativity...especially in an institution that supposedly fosters independence. The whole "unfair" argument is especially baffling, I don't even know how to address that.

I have never attended nor have plans to attend university, and those of you that have and do seem to think this is a reasonable standard to impose and adhere to. I think as Janet said we are probably at an impasse.
But if the assignment in question has anything to do with student learning (which arguably is the essential point of any college course), I'm still not sure why there is any dilemma or impasse.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Four years at a private college now totals a record $109,000 on average – not including room and board. That's a reality that thousands of parents of soon-to-be college students are starting to face Yahoo! Finance - Financially Fit
As I have stated before, as an autodidact I feel no constraints or limits on my opportunities to learn, and therefore feel there is no need to attend a university to do so. A degree, however, is a requirement for many types of jobs and a salary booster for others even if not a requirement. It has, for the most part, become very difficult for non college grads to compete in the job market.

Do you truly believe that most students and their families are scrounging up 10's of thousands of dollars, and/or going into massive debt, for the learning process? If so, that is pretty insular and out of touch thinking. I am sure you don't think you sound that way, though.

FTR not one of my examples mentioned not learning anything or not writing papers.

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Old 01-19-2011, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
As I have stated before, as an autodidact I feel no constraints or limits on my opportunities to learn, and therefore feel there is no need to attend a university to do so.
As an aside, I'm self-taught on a number of things and often like to do things that way, and I've definitely come up against restraints that melted away when I started university - things like access to expensive facilities and equipment, and institutional access to papers.

Also, I've found some things are more efficiently learned with an experienced person keeping an eye on your progress and offering timely assistance. I'd expect what those things are to differ between people - I tend to pick up maths stuff quicker than it gets taught, observational skills I struggle with.

And finally, it's quite hard to assess your own progress when self-taught. IMO there are a bunch of blowhards out there who think they are quite competent at things but actually aren't. Some kind of validation external to oneself is potentially a useful safeguard against becoming one of those - although hardly a guarantee.

So yeah, I'm all in favour of self-teaching, but I don't think it can do absolutely everything a more organised education can.
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Reusing Papers

Well let me put it this way, I haven't found any limitations in my opportunities to learn the things I am personally interested in learning. As not me, YMMV of course.

My actual point was the costs of institutionalized learning are prohibitive to many people. Even if one highly values the learning environment you just described they may have to get resourceful and/or creative to find alternative sources of education (mentor, library! community classes), unless they can afford to invest that time and money, especially if there no expectation of a financial return.

Those that spend the time/money either A) have it or can get it without issue or B) are expecting to get a return on their investment so are comfortable borrowing it or whatever they need to do. Either way, I don't see pure love of learning being the major motivator for some huge majority of students.
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