I got a new computer!

[Ymir's blood]

Blonde dude from '61 be creepin...

[JoeP]

Finnish people aren't supposed to smile. It looks unnatural.

[livius drusus]

You can't drive a sword through a smiling eye.

[JoeP]

Although you can be tempted ...

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by JoeP

So ... I was in need of a thread to post something related to old computers, because Mr Pea has taught me not to start new threads if it can be avoided.

And this "more than 4050 days old" thread is the one, because 512MB of RAM! and 80GB hard drive!

and ... Windows XP!

In some ways it's amazing how little computers have improved since 2005. Processors haven't gotten much faster, just dualed or quadded up in topologies of frequently dubious use and gotten 64-bit, allowing them to use more RAM. But even RAM hasn't kept up to Moore's Law. A computer like that would still be functional for most needs up to and including multimedia in a pinch, just slap in a little more memory.

The only really drastic improvement between then and now was storage density and transfer rates. But not both at once, you now get a choice (spinning disk vs SSD).

[Ensign Steve]

Meta-hijack!

We suddenly find ourselves in the market for a desktop PC, and it has been so long since either one of us bought one that we totally have no idea how the kids are doing it these days.

Do we buy the parts and put it together ourselves? Do we order a custom build online? Can we get something off the shelf at CostCo? Nobody knows.

bey needs something powerful for playing games, and probably Windows, I guess. I am super excited, if baffled, about the Windows that includes Ubuntu. Is that already out? Do all the Windows 10 builds have it or do we have to get that special?

Help us! Pretend we're not technical. What should we look for? What mistakes should we avoid?

[JoeP]

My most recent experience of buying a desktop PC was hearing Little Miss JoeP talk about what she did. She did the custom build online thing. Configure, configure, configure, order, receive large box, some assembly required.

Can't remember the site she used and whether it's UK or global ... but I could ask if you want?

[Zehava]

What sort of games does Bey play? MMOs, FPS, strategy? That's going to help determine specs (i.e. FPS games require better graphics cards, faster memory, etc. to play).

If you are looking for something for simple word processing, Internet browsing, browser games, then just about any off the shelf mass produced system will suffice -- price point will be your biggest deciding factor here.

[lisarea]

Costco contracts with a custom build service where you can spec out your PC and they'll build it for you, but I haven't heard good things about it.

If you do decide to do a custom build to put together yourself, which is what I do and recommend, it's a really good idea to scope out and see if there's some local computer repair shop with a test bench*. The thing that really sucks is when you order all your components, put it together, and something is wrong, but without known good components, you can't tell which part or parts are faulty. Especially when it's something essential like the CPU or the power supply, so you have no way of testing anything else until you get the replacement part.

* You said to pretend you're not technical, so I will point out that Geek Squad doesn't qualify. There is no computer service they can perform on site that you cannot do better yourself, even if you don't know what you're doing. They are completely useless.

[Crumb]

I built my own gaming PC a bit over a year ago. I suggest going that route. I found some random site that showed me compatible parts and I found them on site linked from there as well as Amazon and elsewhere to find the best prices. It was a piece a cake really. Go for it!

[ShottleBop]

Re: running Bash on Windows 10--it's still in beta, and you may have to sign up for the Windows "Insider" program, to get it: Windows Blog.

[Crumb]

Oh and go for the solid state hard drive, even if you decide to get an extra slower drive for more storage. My computer boots up so fast.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Zehava

What sort of games does Bey play? MMOs, FPS, strategy? That's going to help determine specs (i.e. FPS games require better graphics cards, faster memory, etc. to play).

If you are looking for something for simple word processing, Internet browsing, browser games, then just about any off the shelf mass produced system will suffice -- price point will be your biggest deciding factor here.

I currently play destiny which is a console fps with rpg elements.

I would play Diablo 3 on it and the elder scrolls, so video card would be at a premium.

[beyelzu]

Crumb, how did you decide on the parts to choose for your build? I want something that will be quality for awhile, but I don't want to throw away money for slight performance (now or future) improvements. At the same time, I don't want to save a few dollars if it would make the computer much shittier in the future.

I guess I feel like I'm not sure of the break points.

[Crumb]

Ok, ok. I went and looked through my archives and found that I used pcpartpicker.com. You can build it there on the site and see approximate prices (you can possibly find them a bit cheaper.) If you use the site you can swap stuff in and out to see how much power you can get for your budget, and compare different builds and save links to them to share and get advice on your build.

[Dingfod]

Caution: Do not buy a Google Chromebox.

[BrotherMan]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

Crumb, how did you decide on the parts to choose for your build? I want something that will be quality for awhile, but I don't want to throw away money for slight performance (now or future) improvements. At the same time, I don't want to save a few dollars if it would make the computer much shittier in the future.

I guess I feel like I'm not sure of the break points.

It's a tricky thing to be honest. You definitely want to find the best you can afford now, many of the parts you're buying have a performance shelf life of two years or less. That's mostly going to be your RAM and video card. Performance shelf life being defined as able to give you the quality and response you want when playing new(ish) games.

The components you want to spend a little more on now so they last a little longer are the motherboard and processor. Those can generally last through two to four cycles and still remain competitive in that sweet spot of performance.

My comfort zone for the new build was spending between 150 and 250 on any single piece. And I narrowed my choices based on that.

[viscousmemories]

I haven't played PC games in years and I'm over lugging around a big tower, so if/when I replace my Dell XPS 8300 (now a 4 year old dinosaur!) I'm apt to get this sexy beast:

Change the game with the Intel® NUC Kit NUC6i7KYK

It might even be a capable gaming rig given the specs.

[MonCapitan2002]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Anyway, this is what I actually wanted to post: Kaleva, the biggest daily newspaper published in the Oulu region, has made available this compilation from their photo archives about computers and computing in Finland throughout the years:

Tietokoneet olivat toista maata 80-luvulla - isojen möhkäleiden käyttöä opeteltiin kouluissa | Kuvagalleriat | Kaleva.fi

From 1961, before I was born

IMAGE SNIP
to 2000, when they still had those clunky big monitors.

IMAGE SNIP

One of my favourites is one of the last black&white ones, from 1993. It doesn't show much computer, but it does I think show an inter-generational shift. Awesome suit & awesome moustache vs awesome haircut (the kid in front, not the one hiding at the back) & awesome shirt.

IMAGE SNIP

The following image from the web link you kindly provided brings back memories.



That looks like a Vetrex unit. When I was in elementary school, the school I attended had a recreational after school program. One of the games they had was a Vetrex. It brings back some fond memories. It's interesting that I would feel nostalgia for the device when I played it only a handful of times.

I wonder if they still have it. It's been decades since I was a kid ( ), so in all likelihood, it's been binned a long time ago. It's nice to wonder, though. Maybe the current generation of whipper snappers will give it a try, assuming they don't laugh at the primitive graphics.

[Zehava]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

I currently play destiny which is a console fps with rpg elements.

I would play Diablo 3 on it and the elder scrolls, so video card would be at a premium.

I had to check the minimum/recommended system specs for those games. None of them have outrageous requirements. It's not like you are asking for a system to run Call of Duty in 4K resolution at 100+ frames per second.

Many people won't like them, but for moderate gaming systems I really like AMD's APUs (CPU with integrated graphics). Yes many people will balk at integrated graphics, but these are much better than the IGEs of the past. I have a desktop with an AMD A10-6800K APU (that has the equivalent of a Radeon HD 8670 GPU built in) that plays Diablo 3 and ESO (Elder Scrolls Onlie) just fine for me. I haven't tested frame rates, but it's not janky and it is smooth, so I don't have to know if I'm getting 40fps or 60fps.

There are a few caveats that go with using an APU. First the graphics engine uses a portion of the system memory, that means you need more memory than usual (though not tons) and you need the fastest memory that your motherboard will support. Second, upgrading video performance is not as easy. You can't simply remove the video card and put in another, you have to replace the APU (CPU/GPU combo). Finally if you plan on using multiple monitors I would definitely recommend getting an after market CPU cooler, the one that comes with the APU won't cut it.

The last 3 or 4 systems that I have spec'd out for myself and family members have all been AMD APU systems. For casual to moderate gaming systems I don't think you can get a better bang for your buck.

[Zehava]

Originally Posted by BrotherMan

It's a tricky thing to be honest. You definitely want to find the best you can afford now, many of the parts you're buying have a performance shelf life of two years or less. That's mostly going to be your RAM and video card. Performance shelf life being defined as able to give you the quality and response you want when playing new(ish) games.

The components you want to spend a little more on now so they last a little longer are the motherboard and processor. Those can generally last through two to four cycles and still remain competitive in that sweet spot of performance.

My comfort zone for the new build was spending between 150 and 250 on any single piece. And I narrowed my choices based on that.

I agree with BrotherMan here. The motherboard and CPU are priority number one, spend more here and you will extend the life of the PC. New CPUs are only marginally better than last years. We are no longer in the heady days of the 1st gen Athlons when your CPU was out of date as soon as you bought it.

[BrotherMan]

Quick addendum to clarify: When I said 150-250 for any piece, I specifically meant motherboard, CPU, GPU and RAM. Hard drives, cd/dvd/br drives, power supply, cases are things I haven't needed in a long time and forget they're important when building from scratch. Hard drives, and cd/dvd/br drives (if you even want one) are cheap as you want any more.

As Crumb suggested, buy a solid state drive for the primary operating system. It doesn't have to be very large to hold just that. A standard drive (as large as you want) for holding everything else. Or, you know, if you don't want to mess around with multiple drives forget the standard one all together. (Just remember the thing about eggs and baskets.)

[Zehava]

Stop saying things just to get me to agree with you BrotherMan

SSD for the boot drive, I'll never go back to a standard drive for that.

The SSD is for the OS only, install all your programs onto the large capacity standard drive. A 128gb SSD is sufficient for the OS, and SSDs of this size are dirt cheap anymore.

[BrotherMan]

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Zehava

New CPUs are only marginally better than last years.

True, but GPUs on the other hand:
Thanks For Ruining Another Game Forever, Computers

Read the first part quickly - summarises the triumph of computers over humans in chess (Deep Blue), and how it was thought impossible for Go ("more possible moves than there are atoms in the universe") but has been done (AlphaGo).

Read carefully from this table onwards:

Consider this breakdown of the cost of floating point operations over time, measured in dollars per gigaflop:
1961 $8,300,000,000
1984 $42,780,000
1997 $42,000
2000 $1,300
2003 $100
2007 $52
2011 $1.80
2012 $0.73
2013 $0.22
2015 $0.08

That's the improvement in speed of GPUs. For certain tasks they are already much much much faster than CPUs.