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  #151  
Old 11-06-2015, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

You know, I actually dived into the cesspool of comments on some of the articles about this, and I am hugely amused that so many of them can be summed up as "THIS IS PEESEE GONE MAD but I totally get where they're coming from and agree with every single point of their statements and explanation viewed individually but ITS PC GONE MAD!!!!1!!!"
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  #152  
Old 12-14-2015, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

A bit off-topic, but why are they keeping Luke hidden in the promos for the new movie?


There are 2 prominent fan hypotheses that I've seen.

The first is that Luke is ultimately going to turn out to be a bad guy -- maybe a new Sith Lord who is ultimately in charge of Team Bad Guy.

I really hope that isn't the case. Arguably, the whole point of Luke Skywalker's journey was that he -- unlike his father -- was strong enough to resist the temptation of the Dark Side. If all of that is thrown away and the next trilogy has the premise of "Luke turned to the Dark Side after all; let's see if he can be redeemed" I will be ... disappointed.

Granted, it more or less worked in Dark Empire, but I very-much doubt that Abrams and Company can pull off anything like that.



The second hypothesis that I've seen is that Luke has been in hiding for some time, and will only re-emerge near the end of the movie to reluctantly lend a hand.

Frankly, that doesn't sound much -- if any -- better. Why would Luke be in hiding? Is the Imperial Remnant trying to hunt him down and kill him? Is he afraid they'll succeed?

Even if that's the case, as the last Jedi, he has a duty and an obligation to both help lead the fight against tyranny and to train the next generation of Jedi. (And hopefully, in the process, he'll avoid some of the mistakes made by the previous generation of Jedi.)

If he has spent the last several years in hiding and has failed to learn from the mistakes made by Yoda and Obi-Wan (among others), then that, too, will be ... disappointing.
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  #153  
Old 12-14-2015, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Damn, Han Solo looked so old in the trailer.
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  #154  
Old 12-14-2015, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

I dunno what Luke's part will be, but I suspect his involvement will be minimized in SOME contrived fashion. Not for particularly good story reasons, but merely so they can keep the focus on the newer, younger characters. And even though his aged face is all over the trailers, I suspect the same will be done with Han. Maybe they'll even kill him off in the first film.
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  #155  
Old 12-14-2015, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

This is me just guessing out wildly: Luke might go into hiding specifically because he is the last Jedi. (So far as anyone knows.) We all watched what happened at the end when the galaxy was guided by a whole organization of Jedi. He probably reasoned that with all of the old good and bad Jedi dead and gone, the galaxy needed to be rebuilt without his interference.
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  #156  
Old 12-14-2015, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

I'm going with the idea that Luke has turned to the dark side. That's the direction the old fan fiction books went, at least the one's I read as a kid. There was also a lot of foreshadowing in the old movies, and these stories aren't really known for that kind of misdirection.
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  #157  
Old 12-15-2015, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

I'm going with the idea that they are keeping him out of the promos just to fuel that kind of speculation. If he were clearly in the commercials as either good or bad, the people wanting him to be the other way would be less excited to see the film. This way they get both sides to show up.

That said, as a fan of his villain voice and live action work for DC and a lover of good villains, I'm hoping for Dark Luke.
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  #158  
Old 12-15-2015, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Quote:
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I'm hoping for Dark Luke.



That having been said, I agree that Mark Hamill plays an excellent villain.
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  #159  
Old 12-15-2015, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?


:joker:
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  #160  
Old 12-15-2015, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

The reason I'll be disappointed if Luke has turned to the Dark Side is that I think it will be a betrayal of his character's growth. [Again, it could be done well, but it would require some very good writing.]


What do I mean? Well, consider the prequel movies. The Sith have always been portrayed as having a dualistic mentality, but as the prequels made clear, the Jedi were no better. To them, every action is either Good ("Light Side") or Evil ("Dark Side"), and they don't seem to be capable of understanding that the real world isn't so simplistic.

Which makes Obi-Wan's claim that "Only a Sith thinks in absolutes" both utterly hypocritical and hysterically funny. Not just because it's an oxymoronic statement but because the Jedi themselves have been shown to be all but incapable of anything other than dualistic thinking, and who apparently view everything in simplistic, black-or-white ("Light Side" vs. "Dark Side") terms.


And both Obi-Wan and Yoda seem to have kept that mindset well into The Empire Strikes Back, at least. Yet Luke's actions in both Empire and Return of the Jedi flat-out demonstrate that Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong.

So, I liked that Luke dressed all in black for Return of the Jedi and occasionally used powers that are normally associated with the "Dark Side" (like Force-choking one of Jabba's guards, for instance) without being corrupted in the process, as Yoda said would inevitably happen.

My take on it is that Luke had matured enough to realize that everyone has the choice to be Good or Evil, and you can use powers that are generally associated with the Dark Side for Good purposes, and that doing so doesn't inevitably corrupt you. What matters is why you're doing what it is that you're doing.*

In that sense, Luke demonstrates that he has moved beyond the dualistic, black-or-white thinking of both the Jedi and the Sith, and is a wiser, more flexible thinker than his mentors -- and in some respects, a much wiser person than either Yoda or Obi-Wan. At the very least, Luke is a much wiser and more flexible person than Yoda or Obi-Wan ever gave him credit for being -- one who recognizes that what matters is that your actions are guided by compassion for others and a determination to do what's right, rather than slavish devotion to an overly simplistic, overly-rigid, and seemingly-arbitrary list of guidelines regarding what is "Good" and what is "Evil" behavior.



As such, if the sequels show that Luke ultimately does fall to the Dark Side, it seems to me that this will be a betrayal of all that -- even if he is ultimately redeemed. It'll be a great big, "Screw you; you can't escape fate, and Yoda was right all along -- no matter how good your intentions might have been, once you do anything that's even the least bit morally questionable according to my arbitrary guidelines, you're condemned to become an evil person."

To which I can only say: :xp:


*Which is one thing I liked about the Jedi Academy game. In it, Kyle Katarn flat-out states that there is no such thing as "Dark Side" or "Light Side" powers, and that what matters is why you do what you do. That is, he points out, using a "Dark Side" power like Force Lightning doesn't make you Evil, so long as you're using it for good reasons. Just as using abilities typically associated with the Dark Side for good purposes will not turn you evil, using powers traditionally associated with the "Light Side" for evil purposes will lead you to the Dark Side. And, in-game, Luke openly agrees with this claim.


***


As for Mark Hamill playing a villain, oh gods yes, he's good. With all due respect to Heath Ledger, nobody has pulled off the perfect "Joker voice" like Mark Hamill has. He manages to make The Joker sound funny, creepy, and genuinely terrifying all at the same time -- something that no other actor has managed to truly capture, in my opinion.

What's more, he has surprising range. I was astounded when I discovered that he was the voice of Solomon frikkin' Grundy as well. I would never have imagined the same person voiced both characters.

Seriously, Mark Hamill is one of the most gifted voice actors around.


Speaking of such things, with all due respect to Christian Bale, Kevin Conroy is the voice of the Batman, in my opinion. Hands down. Not only can he effortlessly convey Batman's iron resolve which masks (but does not completely hide) the deep sense of compassion for others which ultimately drives him, but he can also make the Batman sound utterly intimidating without making him sound at all incomprehensible or even downright silly as some *cough* Bale *cough* have done.

What's more, he manages to make Bruce Wayne and Batman sound like two completely different people, without making either his "Bruce Wayne" or "Batman" voices sound at all artificial.

Frankly, I think that they should release "Special Edition" versions of all three Dark Knight movies, with all of Christian Bale's lines redubbed by Kevin Conroy. It could only be an improvement, if you ask me.
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  #161  
Old 12-15-2015, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

For what it's worth:

J.J. Abrams: ‘History repeats itself’ in new ‘Star Wars’
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  #162  
Old 12-15-2015, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

HA! I would pay to see that Special Edition. Agree completely on both Conroy and Hamill being iconic in those roles. My favorite showcase for Conroy is Heart of Steel, part 1. When Bruce comes home, expecting to find his date waiting for him and instead finds Alfred knocked out by her, he calls Alfred's name three times, starting out as Bruce and ending as Batman when he finds him. It's a master class in voice acting.

And, while I'm off topic, I have to confess my initial reaction to the Star Wars tie-in Dodge Ram commercials Mark Hamill voices was surprise that he could still do a non-sinister voice-over. But he's a pro, of course he can.
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  #163  
Old 12-16-2015, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

One of the best Kevin Smith interviews (Fatman on Batman via Smodcast) is when he had a good long talk with Kevin Conroy. Of course they talked about being the voice of Batman, but they talked about a lot of other stuff too.
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  #164  
Old 12-16-2015, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
... overly simplistic, overly-rigid, and seemingly-arbitrary list of guidelines regarding what is "Good" and what is "Evil" behavior....
Given how bad the Dark Side appears to be, wouldn't you have some set of pretty strict guidelines? It might be okay for Luke Skywalker, saviour of the galaxy and Jedi prodigy to Force Choke some nameless guard, but if less willed Jedi tried it all the time, would they really stay pure of heart?

I remember one of the characters in Knights of the Old Republic, or perhaps the sequel, remarking that the 'Dark Side' isn't just some figure of speech the Jedi go on about. It's a real thing, and falling to it is a real thing that happens.

So yeah, if I were looking after Force sensitives, I'd probably have some (probably slightly too strict) code to prevent... 'accidents'.
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  #165  
Old 12-16-2015, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Just saw The Force Awakens. Didn't hate it. Pretty damn enjoyable, actually.
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  #166  
Old 12-16-2015, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
... overly simplistic, overly-rigid, and seemingly-arbitrary list of guidelines regarding what is "Good" and what is "Evil" behavior....
Given how bad the Dark Side appears to be, wouldn't you have some set of pretty strict guidelines? It might be okay for Luke Skywalker, saviour of the galaxy and Jedi prodigy to Force Choke some nameless guard, but if less willed Jedi tried it all the time, would they really stay pure of heart?

I remember one of the characters in Knights of the Old Republic, or perhaps the sequel, remarking that the 'Dark Side' isn't just some figure of speech the Jedi go on about. It's a real thing, and falling to it is a real thing that happens.

So yeah, if I were looking after Force sensitives, I'd probably have some (probably slightly too strict) code to prevent... 'accidents'.
There is some logic to this.

From what I can tell, "Dark Side" powers seem to be ones that are primarily intended to hurt people. "Force Choke," "Force Lightning," etc. directly harm people when used, and are aggressive by nature. [Presumably, Luke was just "lightly choking" those guards, and intended to distract them rather than do any real injury.]

By contrast, "Light Side" powers like the so-called "Jedi Mind Trick" don't directly harm their victims.

Though it seems to me that there would have to be some pretty strong lessons about not mis-using "Light Side" powers either. In the wrong hands, the "Mind Trick" seems to me to be a much more insidious ability than are most of the "Dark Side" abilities. In most of the Star Wars-themed games, for example, a strong-enough Force-user can use the "Mind Trick" to make enemies do things like jump to their deaths or even shoot their friends. Frankly, killing someone with Force Lightning sounds a lot less "Evil" to me than taking over his mind to make him shoot his friends and then commit suicide.


***


I certainly think that there should be and would be some pretty strict rules about which Force powers one could use and how. Still, it seems to me kind of insulting to say that any use of "Dark Side" powers for any reason is guaranteed to sooner or later turn you to Team Evil. Which is pretty-much what Yoda says (or at least, strongly implies) in The Empire Strikes Back.

More to the point, it seems to me that by Return of the Jedi, Luke (who has thoroughly demonstrated that he is motivated by compassion, rather than fear or any desire for revenge) has become strong-enough and wise-enough to be able to use such powers (only when absolutely necessary, of course) without falling to the Dark Side. Either way, I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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  #167  
Old 12-17-2015, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

We went to a midnight showing last night and I enjoyed it. I wouldn't say it's awesome, but it didn't suck either. I think someone on twitter said something like "there is nothing new in the Force Awakens and you'll like it anyway" and I would say that's pretty accurate in my case.

Something non-spoilery:

Daisy Ridley steals the show. John Boyega does a very fine job, but Daisy Ridley was simply superb.

There are some cool and some not-cool things I'd like to talk about, but I'll leave it entirely until more people have seen it. No spoilers, not even under spoiler tags :D
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  #168  
Old 12-17-2015, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Quote:
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More to the point, it seems to me that by Return of the Jedi, Luke (who has thoroughly demonstrated that he is motivated by compassion, rather than fear or any desire for revenge) has become strong-enough and wise-enough to be able to use such powers (only when absolutely necessary, of course) without falling to the Dark Side.
I always got the impression it was a pretty close run thing. If Luke hadn't severed Darth Vader's hand, causing him to pause, reflect at his own missing hand, and take a deep breath, it's not clear he wouldn't have stumbled at that moment.

When Luke leaves Degobah, Obi-Wan and Yoda are clearly both worried he won't succeed in defeating the Emperor. I wonder if they are more concerned that he might fall than fail?
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  #169  
Old 12-18-2015, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

SPOILERS!!!11 I WANT SPOILERS!!11111!

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  #170  
Old 12-18-2015, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Ok.

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  #171  
Old 12-19-2015, 12:34 AM
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Ok.


:glare::glare:
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  #172  
Old 12-19-2015, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Okay, I've seen it now.


It's ... okay. Honestly, it really doesn't seem like a complete movie to me. Instead, it seems more like 2 hours or so of set-up for the real movie, which will presumably be out in a year or two.





Worth seeing? Yeah. Better than The Phantom Menace? Yeah, probably. But, even for a Star Wars movie, it seems ... thin. Like I said, it seems more like set-up for the next movie than a movie that can stand on its own.
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  #173  
Old 12-19-2015, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

I'm so glad it's decent. I don't really care about good or original as much as I do not physically painful. While everyone lumped their hate on Jar Jar I gladly would have taken him over the "acting" and "dialog" in some of the "love" scenes. Given this is setting the direction of a portion of geek culture, it would be nice to not cringe at most of the movie.
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  #174  
Old 12-19-2015, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

Well, that's one thing I'll say for it. The acting and dialog are way better than what we saw in the prequels. Not that that's saying much, admittedly.


At least Abrams didn't completely ruin Star Wars like he did Star Trek.
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  #175  
Old 12-19-2015, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: Is this Star Wars nerd-rage worthy?

I saw it.

It was a satisfying entertainment, but

Actual spoilers:


Random thing I thought in the very first scene though... Do the spaceships in any of the other movies have realistic lighting? I don't remember ever seeing a ship having a dark side (pun not intended), it was always like there were several light sources in every scene. Anyway, it starts with you seeing a ship blotting out a planet.

Then again... if the planet is lit on that side, presumably the ship should be too! Oh well.

Question: The movie obviously is trying to emulate the original trilogy. But what influences do you see from the prequels?
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BrotherMan (12-19-2015), Janet (12-19-2015), ShottleBop (12-19-2015)
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