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  #101  
Old 08-05-2008, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
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Was that irony? Someone help me out here...
Ok, let's wait here for someone to give a shit.
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  #102  
Old 08-05-2008, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

You are seriously messed up.

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  #103  
Old 08-05-2008, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

When I was a kid, I thought of the old "Batman" television show as simple adventure. When I saw episodes of it as an adult, I was surprised to learn how satirical it had been.


Let's consider. First of all, the most obvious thing about the show is that absolutely none of the "good guys" have any senses of humor whatsoever. All of them are portrayed as being serious as heart-attacks 100% of the time. It's most obvious with Batman and -- interestingly -- Robin, but it's true of all the good guys.

What's more, none of the good guys ever betray the slightest hint that they have even the slightest idea of how to enjoy life. Every one of them comes across as utterly devoid of fun.


The next most obvious thing about all of the "good guys," particularly Batman and Robin, is that they're completely black-and-white thinkers. To them, everything and everyone is either "good" or "evil," and there's no middle ground whatsoever. For example, Batman is forever referring to the villains as "fiends," even if they've committed no crimes more serious than jaywalking. To his credit, Batman seems to believe in the possibility of redemption, but he's nonetheless portrayed as a completely black-and-white thinker who seems to regard every action as either praiseworthy or heinous. And he doesn't seem to have the capacity to understand that someone might commit a "heinous crime" like speeding without being a horrible person.


The villains are forever capturing Batman and Robin and then putting them into some sort of death trap. More often than not, B&R escape not because they're smart or because they have nifty gadgets -- but out of pure luck. For example, I remember one episode in which B&R were hooked up to electrical cables. Just as the villain threw the switch that would electrocute our heroes, Gotham City experienced the world's most conveniently-timed power outage. (Even as a kid, I thought that a completely unbelievable coincidence.)

Batman frequently noted that they seemed to cheat death on a regular basis. He claimed that it was because they were such good people, and that "Providence" was, therefore, on their side -- and would intervene when necessary, to protect them.


Perhaps the most noteworthy thing about the villains of the show is that they were the only ones who ever seemed to derive any sort of enjoyment out of life. True, most of the villains did try to bump off B&R on a frequent basis, but other than that, they rarely did anything truly heinous. More often than not, it seemed that their major "crimes" were that they were enjoying life too much.

And that's the thing. Time and time again, the show went overboard to portray anyone who wasn't working hard and mindlessly conforming to the Protestant work ethic as a bad person. Indeed, that was often the chief means by which B&R judged someone's worth. If a person was diligently working at a "proper" job, that person was automatically assumed to be a good person. If a person had no visible means of support, he or she was assumed to be a scofflaw and, therefore, lower than dirt.

The irony, of course, is that Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson were independently wealthy and had never had real jobs in their lives. But then, the show consistently portrayed them as spending more or less literally every waking moment hovering over the Batphone, waiting to be called into action. So I guess the did have jobs, of a sort. (It was also frequently mentioned in the show that they were "duly-deputized officers of the law.")


The ultimate example of this attitude came in the "Batman" movie. B&R found a bomb in a bar. Robin actually tried to urge Batman to let the bomb go off and kill everyone in the bar, and actually chided Batman for risking his life to save a bunch of "drunkards" -- making it clear in the process that he didn't regard them as worth saving. Had any of these people done anything at all to suggest that they were bad people? No. Their only "crime" was that they were (legally!) consuming alcohol in the middle of the day, which implied that they didn't have regular jobs.


***

After seeing it again as an adult, it was pretty clear to me that the old "Batman" show was a satire. It mercilessly made fun of Batman and Robin for being so utterly rigid in their attitudes, so ruthlessly judgemental of others, so completely humorless, so arrogant as to assume that "Providence" favored and protected them, and so completely incapable of thinking in anything other than black-and-white terms.

As such, ham-fisted though it might have been, I think the sketch in the OP does illustrate a point. GW Bush frequently makes public statements suggesting that he, too, is a judgemental, black-and-white thinker who's incapable of understanding that real-world situations often involve shades of gray, and who seems to believe that "Providence" guides and supports his actions.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #104  
Old 08-05-2008, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
GW Bush frequently makes public statements suggesting that he, too, is a judgemental, black-and-white thinker who's incapable of understanding that real-world situations often involve shades of gray, and who seems to believe that "Providence" guides and supports his actions.
OMG! Bush is Batman! Who would ever have seen through the disguise!
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  #105  
Old 08-06-2008, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

Thanks Michael
Mick's Guide to Successful Political Rhetoric

Rule 1: Make frequent public statements in which judgement are presented in simple black-and-white terms, and avoid confusing your audience with troublesome shades of gray.

Rule 2: Don't let them know you're contracted to Satan.
Yep, pretty much everyone in public office is going to be swept up by your trenchant critique of William Dozier's Batman, I reckon.

Mick
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  #106  
Old 08-07-2008, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

Are you suggesting that Bush doesn't often take this to such extremes that he sometimes sounds more like a parody of a politician than the real thing?

What other politician actually says things like, "You're either with us or against us" (Press conference with French President Jacques Chirac, 2001) and says with a straight face that he wants to "rid the world of the evil-doers" (September, 2001)?

Cheers,

Michael
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  #107  
Old 08-07-2008, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
Are you suggesting that Bush doesn't often take this to such extremes that he sometimes sounds more like a parody of a politician than the real thing?

What other politician actually says things like, "You're either with us or against us" (Press conference with French President Jacques Chirac, 2001) and says with a straight face that he wants to "rid the world of the evil-doers" (September, 2001)?

Cheers,

Michael

Yeah...."Bring 'em on!"
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  #108  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:10 PM
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Are you suggesting that Bush doesn't often take this to such extremes that he sometimes sounds more like a parody of a politician than the real thing?

No, but I don't know how to make that judgement reliably, that is, without its being contaminated by my attitude to his politics. Are you saying you do know how? Without looking them up, are you able to sort these into 'extremes of parody' and 'the real thing'?
  • ... From your ranks come the great captains who hold the nation's destiny in their hands the moment the war tocsin sounds. The Long Gray Line has never failed us. Were you to do so, a million ghosts in olive drab, in brown khaki, in blue and gray, would rise from their white crosses thundering those magic words: Duty, Honor, Country.

  • Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

  • ... the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

  • ... we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

  • ... one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."

  • It will be all the easier for us to conduct ourselves as belligerents in a high spirit of right and fairness because we act without animus, not in enmity towards a people or with the desire to bring any injury or disadvantage upon them, but only armed opposition to an irresponsible government which has thrown aside all considerations of humanity and of right and is running amuck.

  • We enter this war only where we are clearly forced into it because there are no other means of defending our rights.

  • ... America is privileged to spend her blood and her might for the principles that gave her birth and happiness and the peace which she has treasured. God helping her, she can do no other.
How many of them could not possibly have been said by Batman?

Mick
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  #109  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:47 PM
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  #110  
Old 09-02-2008, 11:54 AM
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:bump:

I am challenging you to explain why you trust the political independence of your sense of humour, Michael. I think argument by ridicule is such a powerful weapon in the wrong hands that it is very important to guard against its misuse. I don't know any way to do that except by discussing examples of misuse as often as I dare. I reckon the sketch was a clear example of the political misuse of ridicule, and I think your "Bush sounds like a parody" may be another.
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  #111  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

I'm starting to wonder if the necro cycles can be correlated with something like, for example, running out of medication every X number of days.

The government should give me a $1 billion grant to study this dull phenomenon.
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  #112  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:47 PM
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WaY 2 SSSSHhhhiiiiIIIIiii-iiiiiiiiiiitttt in Der THrEad!
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  #113  
Old 09-02-2008, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
I am challenging you to explain why you trust the political independence of your sense of humour, Michael. I think argument by ridicule is such a powerful weapon in the wrong hands that it is very important to guard against its misuse. I don't know any way to do that except by discussing examples of misuse as often as I dare. I reckon the sketch was a clear example of the political misuse of ridicule, and I think your "Bush sounds like a parody" may be another.
Now where did I say I found the video funny? Hint: I didn't. Please don't assume.

I merely pointed out that the video illustrates a point: Bush often speaks in a manner that makes him sound like a parody of a politician, thus it's easy to find quotes like those that make him sound ridiculous.

We could turn it around and point out that you seem quite interested in defending Bush. Are you quite certain of your own political motivations?


Regardless, the original point stands. No other prominent U.S. politician in recent memory has ever said anything so starkly dualistic as "You're either with us or against us." No other prominent U.S. politician in recent times, not even Reagan at his most bellicose, has actually invited attack on U.S. troops by saying something like "Bring it on".

And Bush himself admits that he's pretty-much a black-and-white thinker who's unwilling or unable to see that the real world involves shades of gray. "I don't do nuance," as he puts it. So it's not just that his public statements support that conclusion, he frankly admits it.

So yes, I do think Bush frequently sounds more like a parody of a U.S. politician than the real thing. Does this mean that, with careful searching, you couldn't find plenty of out-of-context quotes to make any politician sound stupid? Of course not! But Bush sure does seem to make it easy for his distractors to make him sound foolish.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #114  
Old 09-03-2008, 03:11 PM
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Now where did I say I found the video funny? Hint: I didn't. Please don't assume.

Woah! Climb down off that high horse please, Kemo Sabe! I think I am allowed to assume that you and I are speaking the same language. I reckon 'ridiculous' means 'laughable' and that 'parody' describes a type of comic effect.

When you ask me whether Bush sounds more like a parody of a politician than the real thing, I think you are asking me to use my sense of humour to make a judgement. I don't trust the political independence of my sense of humour, and I think it is fair to challenge you to explain why you appear not have similar doubts about yours, Michael.

Mick
We could turn it around and point out that you seem quite interested in defending Bush. We could, but I think it would look like a flagrant attempt to divert attention away from the issue of your support for what, in my opinion, is a false and worthless kind of argument.
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  #115  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:10 PM
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  #116  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Bush or Batman?

You might want to re-read, then. You're assuming, and you're assuming incorrectly. I never mentioned or even hinted that I found the video amusing because I didn't find it amusing. And whether or not I found it amusing doesn't change the fact that it's clearly meant as parody. Even if I thought it was unfunny -- or even unfair -- parody, it's still clearly meant as parody.

It's also clearly intended to illustrate a point: Bush often says things that indicate he's a dualistic thinker who's unwilling or unable to deal with "nuance" -- by his own admission. And, further, he frequently says things that even many people who generally support his policies describe as embarrassing and/or ridiculous.
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  #117  
Old 09-04-2008, 12:15 AM
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Michael, you are substituting a make-believe dispute for the real issue here. I accept that you didn't find the video funny (that makes at least two of us) and if you'll take your own advice and re-read, you'll see that I haven't said, implied, or assumed otherwise.

But you did say you thought Bush sounded more like a parody than a real politician. A parody is a joke and I don't think anyone can judge degrees of jokeyness without asking themselves how funny they find it.

You and everyone else who judges Bush to be ridiculous, are making that judgement with your sense of humour. I don't think one's sense of humour can be trusted to make even-handed judgements.

Mick
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