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  #26  
Old 07-30-2014, 10:52 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant. The second is a copy-paste job from a Clutch Munny post above mine.
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
But even if the Palestinian people, in a united state, installed Hamas as the government, so what? Why is democracy OK except when people vote in governments that the U.S. doesn't like?
Firstly, you seem to assume that the Hamas Covenant contains a democratic element. Let's have a look at what we can find, shall we? A quick way of doing that is to search for words the Covenant contains.

136 islamic/islam
92 allah/allah's
57 moslem/moslems
11 jihad
0 democracy/democratic
0 vote
0 election/elections

Looks like a lot of theocracy to me and no democracy at all.

Secondly, there is no doubt that US governments have supported dictatorships when it suited and likewise actually terminate democratically elected governments when they perceived their existence to be contrary to their interests. What exactly has that anything to do with my opinion?

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
The entire bit about destroying Israel strikes me as a huge red herring. The Palestinian people, united or not, will never have the ability to destroy Israel.
It's not a red herring at all. Palestinians have never been in a position to obliterate Israel. That is true, but while the intention to do so is expressed in both the Hamas Convention as well as the Palestinian National Charter I do understand Israel's military actions to nib the feeble attempts by Palestinians to endanger its existence in the bud lest they develop to become a realistic threat.
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  #27  
Old 07-30-2014, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant.
Yes, that's what davidm explained to you after you got it wrong. Not the "Palestinian Covenant", and not even the Palestinian Charter. So why assimilate future Gazan/Palestinian governance to some lines from one party's manifesto (irrespective of the question of that document's permanence)?

And why support the side that seems to be doing the most to keep that party in power in Gaza? As I understand it, Hamas, for all their dimwittedness, garner some goodwill because they build some helpful infrastructure in a place where blockades prevent civil society from doing so, and periodic indiscriminate attacks by the people Hamas reify as the enemy destroy that infrastructure. The blockade and the attacks (and the general degradation and humiliation that Israel inflicts on Palestinians) amount to boxes of votes for Hamas.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
But even if the Palestinian people, in a united state, installed Hamas as the government, so what? Why is democracy OK except when people vote in governments that the U.S. doesn't like?
Firstly, you seem to assume that the Hamas Covenant contains a democratic element.
Why would you say this? I took davidm to be pointing out only that they were democratically elected. You and I are of course free to sit in safety ruminating on the theocratic (and more generally wing-nut, misogynist and conspiracy-theoretic) elements of the Hamas Covenant. But they were elected. A thoughtful perspective might pay attention instead to the criticisms of Israel in the HC as evicting and dispossessing civilians, and indiscriminately attacking and killing young and old, women and men. Huh! I wonder why people in Gaza might vote for a party who calls that stuff out? I wonder what Israel might be doing right now, what you are supporting right now, that might incline people to hold their noses and vote for Hamas? But never mind that -- something something semblance, plus here's a word count.
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  #28  
Old 07-30-2014, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant.
Yes, from the Hamas Covenant! Not from the Palestinian one, which predates the latter by some 25 years, I believe. The line you quote does NOT appear in the Palestinian document.

At this point I can only conclude that you are deliberately trying to conflate Palestine with Hamas. The two are not the same, and nor are their charters.
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  #29  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant.
Yes, from the Hamas Covenant! Not from the Palestinian one, which predates the latter by some 25 years, I believe. The line you quote does NOT appear in the Palestinian document.

At this point I can only conclude that you are deliberately trying to conflate Palestine with Hamas. The two are not the same, and nor are their charters.
At this point I need to point out that I clearly made a mistake in referring to the Hamas Covenant as the Palestinian Covenant. Be it as it may, the Palestinian Charter only differs in words from the Hamas document, not in its intent.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. ...

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal ...

The intent and manner of achieving the purpose is identical. Much has been written about amending this Convention and the intention of doing so has been announced on several occasions, but amendments have never been ratified. The wording of the Palestinian Convention remains exactly as it was in its 1968 revision. Of course I could be wrong again. If so, please furnish me with a link to a later revision and authoritative evidence that this later revision has actually been ratified rather than just talked about.
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  #30  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Under what code of ethics, exactly, does a stated intent carry more moral weight than repeated actions? Israel is actually engaged in ethnic cleansing, they don't just have a faction talking about it. Why doesn't that matter more?
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  #31  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant.
Yes, from the Hamas Covenant! Not from the Palestinian one, which predates the latter by some 25 years, I believe. The line you quote does NOT appear in the Palestinian document.

At this point I can only conclude that you are deliberately trying to conflate Palestine with Hamas. The two are not the same, and nor are their charters.
At this point I need to point out that I clearly made a mistake in referring to the Hamas Covenant as the Palestinian Covenant. Be it as it may, the Palestinian Charter only differs in words from the Hamas document, not in its intent.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. ...

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal ...

The intent and manner of achieving the purpose is identical. Much has been written about amending this Convention and the intention of doing so has been announced on several occasions, but amendments have never been ratified. The wording of the Palestinian Convention remains exactly as it was in its 1968 revision. Of course I could be wrong again. If so, please furnish me with a link to a later revision and authoritative evidence that this later revision has actually been ratified rather than just talked about.
Now this lacks even a whiff of good faith. The PC lists liberal rights as commitments. The HC quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and is a bag of crazy.
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  #32  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC
The passage I quoted is s direct copy-paste job from the Hamas Covenant.
Yes, from the Hamas Covenant! Not from the Palestinian one, which predates the latter by some 25 years, I believe. The line you quote does NOT appear in the Palestinian document.

At this point I can only conclude that you are deliberately trying to conflate Palestine with Hamas. The two are not the same, and nor are their charters.
At this point I need to point out that I clearly made a mistake in referring to the Hamas Covenant as the Palestinian Covenant. Be it as it may, the Palestinian Charter only differs in words from the Hamas document, not in its intent.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. ...

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal ...

The intent and manner of achieving the purpose is identical. Much has been written about amending this Convention and the intention of doing so has been announced on several occasions, but amendments have never been ratified. The wording of the Palestinian Convention remains exactly as it was in its 1968 revision. Of course I could be wrong again. If so, please furnish me with a link to a later revision and authoritative evidence that this later revision has actually been ratified rather than just talked about.
All of this is completely irrelevant to the original point you were waving at. You quoted the Hamas Charter, misattributing the quote to the Palestinian charter, dealing with whether Islam is compatible with secularism in Palestine -- hoping to support your point, I guess, that if Palestine becomes a state, it inevitably will be some kind of fringe ISIS entity at worst, or vehemently nonsecular at best. You've not supported this point and nothing that I know of in the Palestinian Charter (as opposed to the Hamas version) lends support to your claim. It's just a claim.
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  #33  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Originally Posted by Kael View Post
Under what code of ethics, exactly, does a stated intent carry more moral weight than repeated actions? Israel is actually engaged in ethnic cleansing, they don't just have a faction talking about it. Why doesn't that matter more?
It does matter more. That said, the Palestinians have lobbed 1200 rockets into non-military targets on Israeli territory in the past three weeks, though, and they have tunnelled their way into same territory with the same intent. Also, I have yet to hear a word of condemnation by the Palestinian government in regard to suicide bombers blowing up crowded pizza shops and commuter buses. Just because the effectiveness of Palestinian attempts to destroy is no match for those of the Israelis is hardly grounds for giving them a free pass on ethics or morals. Each side is doing its fucking "best" in destroying the other, and indiscriminately so.
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  #34  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Be it as it may, the Palestinian Charter only differs in words from the Hamas document, not in its intent.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. ...

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal ...

The intent and manner of achieving the purpose is identical. Much has been written about amending this Convention and the intention of doing so has been announced on several occasions, but amendments have never been ratified. The wording of the Palestinian Convention remains exactly as it was in its 1968 revision. Of course I could be wrong again. If so, please furnish me with a link to a later revision and authoritative evidence that this later revision has actually been ratified rather than just talked about.
What you quoted was "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

First of all, it's ambiguous what "obliterate" means with respect to "Israel". It does not necessarily mean "kill all the Jews" or "blow up Israel". It could simply mean the end of the current State of Israel, which in theory could happen without killing anyone. But I admit that that could be what they mean.

Even so, I don't see how those two articles from the PC are the same thing with different words. The partition of Palestine can be illegal without that meaning they want to obliterate it, they can support armed resistance to the occupation without supporting genocide. The illegality of the partition and establishment of Israel could be resolved by an agreement (whether it's a one-state or two-state solution) that is amenable to both sides. I don't see those as amounting to a desire to "obliterate Israel" much less "kill all the Israeli Jews".
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  #35  
Old 07-30-2014, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

No one's giving Hamas a free pass, I think most people would be fine if Israel conducted surgical strikes (actual surgical not 1000lb bomb surgical) or raided Hamas headquarters and arrested operatives and dismantled rockets, etc. But instead Israel has decided to aim their precision guided weapons into hospitals and schools on purpose, effectively punishing civilians for Hamas, which is the exact thing they claim inhuman hamas is trying to do with unguided weapons, only Israel could prevent civilian deaths but has chosen not too.
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  #36  
Old 08-01-2014, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Meanwhile, over at the dickwad Project "Reason" (lol) message board founded by the dickwad Sam Harris: Anybody still favor Israel's recent offensive in Gaza?

Quote:
As far as the Palestinians go, I won’t begrudge the Israelis whatever they want to do. Sooner or later they’ll probably kick all the Palestinians out of Gaza (but where will they go? I hope they can swim) and claim that land for themselves. At a minimum, they could stop sending them water and electricity.
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  #37  
Old 08-02-2014, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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He argues the Hamas’s charter calls for the extinction of Israel. You would think its charter is the only document Hamas has ever published. Maybe they ran out of printers. It is a widely reported fact that Hamas accepts a two state solution on the 1967 borders. By a delightful inversion of morality, words on a paper outrage him more than bombing schools and hospitals and civilian infrastructure, more than the massacre of eight hundred civilians at the time of writing. He caricatures Gazans as a bunch of crazed Islamists when in fact the Palestinian resistance was secular until Israel began supporting Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO precisely because it did not want to make peace.

...

He is most happy when he can frame the discussion of war in religious terms. Israel is post-religious and the Palestinians are no. Therefore secularists should side with Israel. America is post-religious and Muslims are not. Therefore secularists ought to side with America. And because Muslims often use religious language to discuss political matters, because they say “jihad” instead of “let’s fight back”, and because they call their dead “martyrs” instead of “fallen heroes”, their concerns are not territorial at all, they are irrational superstition about which there can be no prospects for dialogue.

This habit of always angling for the religious dimension of a conflict, or projecting religion into it where it does not exist, is a consistent pattern of his thought. Even when he has no tribal attachment to the warring sides, he does not ask “Who is the aggressor?”, but “Who is more religious?”. For instance, he mentions the Iran-Iraq war in this debate with Chris Hedges. To most people, that was a straightforward case of aggression by Saddam Hussein against Iran. But Harris does not see that. He is more outraged by the fact Iran used suicide volunteers to clear minefields. “The war between Iran and Iraq was characterised on the Iranian side by this massive campaign of suicide bombing where teenagers were just goaded out to clear minefields by their parents” he says. That is the real problem: Muslims and their martyrdom cult. Not the half a million dead, not Saddam’s use of chemical weapons, not the American support for his invasion in which Harris says “We weren’t involved”. No, the true problem is Iranians defending themselves by suicidal means.
Sam Harris
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2014, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Also: Apparently, stated intent is magic
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  #39  
Old 08-02-2014, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Israel is "post-religious"? :biglaugh:

Although Sam Harris is well-known as an advocate and practitioner of yoga, so perhaps he really is limber enough to keep his head inserted up his own arse.
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  #40  
Old 08-03-2014, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Israel is "post-religious"? :biglaugh:

Although Sam Harris is well-known as an advocate and practitioner of yoga, so perhaps he really is limber enough to keep his head inserted up his own arse.
Sam Harris expounds on the Middle East.

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  #41  
Old 08-03-2014, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

I think if they just gave Israel the land and left them alone, they probably wouldn't bother anyone.

As for the Palestinians, I'm sure there's some other land in the region they could be relocated to. Where, if there are enough "oil rich" nations with available resources -- or, perhaps even the United States? -- or, the Israeli's? -- who can donate the required resources to make it a smooth transition and ensure their needs are cared for, everyone might be better off.

As for the Jews, as an alternative, I suppose you can try doing the same thing with them, although they seem a bit more intent on staying and are less likely to want to leave. The Palestinian State on the other hand, is pretty much a puppet state I believe? so just about anything for them would be preferable to the current state of affairs.

Oh, just think of all the money that could be diverted from dropping bombs (on both sides) that could be used in finding a more decent living situation.

Beats the heck out of starting World War III!
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  #42  
Old 08-05-2014, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Somebody's gotta leave! That much is pretty plain. And the Jews do need to go someplace, whether here or elsewhere. And yes, it would probably best for everyone if they maintained their own sovereign state or territory. And, since this was at one point their homeland, and they have a lot of history here, it seems only logical that they stay put.

So what got the Arabs so pissed off at the Israeli's anyway? Does it have anything to do with the books of Exodus and Joshua? Or, was it something that happened later?

Oh, if anyone is unsure about what the word "obliterate" means, here is the definition from Dictionary.com

verb (used with object), ob·lit·er·at·ed, ob·lit·er·at·ing.

1. to remove or destroy all traces of; do away with; destroy completely.
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  #43  
Old 08-05-2014, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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I think if they just gave Israel the land and left them alone, they probably wouldn't bother anyone.
:laugh:

And if the darkies in the U.S. just stopped being so goddamned colored, the KKK would probably dry up and blow away.
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  #44  
Old 08-05-2014, 05:36 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

We should turn North America over to the Native Americans too, while we're at it. After all, this was at one point their homeland, and they have a lot more history here than the Jewish people do in Israel.

It only seems logical that they should stay and the rest of us should find someplace else to live.


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  #45  
Old 08-05-2014, 05:53 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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So what got the Arabs so pissed off at the Israeli's anyway?
Perhaps it was the bombing of their schools and hospitals in an attempt to eradicate them as a race. Nah, no one would get mad at something so trivial as that!
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  #46  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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So what got the Arabs so pissed off at the Israeli's anyway?
Perhaps it was the bombing of their schools and hospitals in an attempt to eradicate them as a race. Nah, no one would get mad at something so trivial as that!
The reason stretches way further back. After an absence of almost two millennia the newly re-established Jewish nation wasted no time in systematically dispossessing Palestinians of their lands and doing so with extraordinary rapaciousness.

Iacchus, as for calling the area in question as the original homeland of the Jews, ask yourself how it became so. The answer is not difficult to discover. Just look at the account of that in the Jewish "history" book, the Tanakh. You may think that taking possession of land with massacres - even genocide - of the tribes that already lived there somehow trumps the right of others who lived there since the Romans drove the Jews out in 70AD. I do not.
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Since Abraham was originally from Ur, I think it is only fair that the Jews relocate to Iraq.

Wait a sec, the Arabs are also the children of Abraham so they should all go live in Iraq as well. :chin: I don't think this solution is going to work either.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:45 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Supposedly he was from Ur, yes. He was also looking to relocate at the time, and when he found some place suitable, this is where he settled.

Am not sure, but wasn't this also the same place they call Israel today?
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
So what got the Arabs so pissed off at the Israeli's anyway?
Perhaps it was the bombing of their schools and hospitals in an attempt to eradicate them as a race. Nah, no one would get mad at something so trivial as that!
Are you talking about what's happened recently or, at some other time before this? It seems to me the Arabs have always been pissed off at the Jews. Was just wondering if someone could come up with a definitive point at which this began?
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Last edited by Iacchus; 08-06-2014 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 08-06-2014, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

People are discussing Ur. Where is Proto-Über Gorden when you need him?
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