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  #26  
Old 02-11-2013, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

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Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
Can nations even have rights?
Silly question.
Nations are composed of corporations, right?
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2013, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Norman Finkelstein said something relevant in one of the interviews I watched last night about how Israel, despite claiming that Palestine recognizing Israel's "right to exist" is essential to continuing peace talks, signed peace treaties with two other nations (Egypt & Jordan), neither of which was required to say such a thing.

I think I jumped to the conclusion that a solution had to be presented in the trial. The idea of a one state solution with right of return effectively destroys Israel as a Jewish State. Any solution that requires right of return does the same thing, one state or two. Would it be accurate to say that arguing against Israel's "right to exist" as a Jewish state can be merely insisting the refugees be immediately granted their right to return?
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  #28  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Well, yeah. That's what I said, only the other way around: Israel's insistence on a 'right to exist' as a 'Jewish state' is another way of saying the refugees will never be allowed to return.
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  #29  
Old 03-03-2013, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

So, she was Norman Finkelstein and she did a good enough job that she got a round of applause after the teacher said there would be no applause in the courtroom.

The tribunal isn't over yet though.

Fortunately, the other side chose Moses as one of their witnesses. I would have thought he was a better witness for the nay side. Bonus.
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  #30  
Old 03-03-2013, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

No wonder Geert Wilders loves Israel so much. After all, he is claiming that the Netherlands have a right to exist as a White "Judeo-Christian" State without all those Muslims in it that it has become so fashionable to complain about.

I bet the Grand Imperial Dragon of the KKK also believes in the right of the USA to exist as a white protestant nation.
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  #31  
Old 03-06-2013, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
As far as I know there is no such thing in international law as a 'right to exist' for countries. What states recognise is not a right to exist, but the existence of other states. Palestinians have recognised that Israel exists. What the Israelis seem to want is for the Palestinians to agree that Israel should be ruled by Jews, which is quite a different thing to ask. They are using the 'right to exist' as a reason why the Palestinians should not have the right to return, like any refugee, because that would end Jewish-majority rule.
Yeah, "right to exist" seems not to refer to Israel as a state, but to Jews, and their "right to be the overwhelming majority population of a state and have unquestioned political hegemony within that state combined with privileges for the Jewish religion."

I don't think it's enough in their eyes for them to have a majority population of 51%, since that would present the possibility of some left-wing/secular Jews teaming up with Arabs and other minorities against the right-wing Orthodox.

Anyway, even if they weren't totally dicks about it, and there hadn't been these wars with Arabs and so forth... That is even if they weren't creating a Jewish state by taking land from and oppressing Arabs, I favor separation of church and state in all countries and so I would oppose such a "right" anyway. I always find it strange how there can be American Jews who want the US to have separation of church and state but think it's not only ok but necessary for Israel to have special rights for Judaism.
This has never happened by the way. Never in the history of Israel has there been any cooperation with any of the Arab parties. Never have they been invited to be part of the government or even to support a minority government. In other ethnically mixed states, like Macedonia, foreign powers usually put pressure on the majority to include some minority representatives in their government.
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2013, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Oh hai. Apparently even the NYT has decided it is time to wonder about the 'right to exist': On Questioning the Jewish State - NYTimes.com
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  #33  
Old 04-06-2013, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Hm.

Quote:
‘Hacktivist Anonymous,’ a group of international hackers, has promised to ‘erase Israel from the internet’ in a coordinated attack against the country on April 7.

A hacker, who adopted the pseudonym ‘Anon Ghost,’ initiated the event and named it #OpIsrael, according to the Arabian Gazette on Wednesday.

Many more known hacktivists, notorious for carrying out state-targeted attacks, are supporting the campaign. One hacking team told The Hackers Post website their reason for participation; “Israel isn’t stopping human rights violations. It’s to show solidarity with newly recognized Palestinian state.”

Israel has taken the threats seriously, especially since several state-run websites have already been affected, subsequently, defensive preparations are already underway.

Officer Ben Avi, Director of online webpage Accessible Government, told Israeli news source Haaretz, “what distinguishes this plan when compared to previous attacks is that it really seems to be organized by Anonymous-affiliated groups from around the world in what looks like a joining of forces.”
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  #34  
Old 04-07-2013, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Someone (Watser?) had the recent breakdown of Israeli overreactions to Palestinian attacks; i.e., the Israelis killing 200 or 300 Palestinians as a case of simply punishing an entire population.

Can someone re-link that data?
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  #35  
Old 04-07-2013, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Not sure if this helps, this is the general link to B'Tselem's statistics: Statistics | B'Tselem
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  #36  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Bumping this thread because I need a place to discuss Palestine/Israel history. This for instance; This Time, the Loser Writes History: The Six-Day War :: Middle East Quarterly

I was going to try to research all the ways in which it is wrong, but then I thought "why not let watser? et al teach me; they'll enjoy that.


It's cleverly written, making the most of one or two key facts that apparently refute some corresponding claim of straw-mannish nature and hinting that, without those claims, the whole anti-Israel edifice crumbles. Even if those facts stand up, I suspect the argument doesn't. But how many of Glickman's factual claims are directly rebuttable? And who is Gabriel Glickman?
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  #37  
Old 06-06-2017, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Gabriel Glickman graduated in Middle Eastern Studies somewhere, like me :giggles:

But this bit 'Some analysts have gone a step further in substituting victim for aggressor by blaming Jerusalem (rather than Cairo) for triggering the prewar crisis' says a lot about who he is. Nobody in the world, including the US, regards Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (the Czech Republic has claimed West Jerusalem is its capital) and nobody considers East Jerusalem as even being IN Israel.

I'm not going to bother with the whole thing, except that 'the received dogma' of the Mainstream Media still is that Israel 'was forced' into that war (if they don't outright claim that Nasser started it), even if historians have reached a different conclusion. But as it happened an interview of Norman Finkelstein appeared on Mondoweiss:
Quote:
Finkelstein emphasizes that no genuine academic today, whatever their political orientation, endorses the Mainstream Narrative. He starts by identifying what he has called the “Two Biggest Lies.”

* The truth is that Nasser and the other Arab leaders had absolutely no intention of invading Israel in June 1967.

* And Israel’s existence was never in the slightest doubt, as both Israeli and American leaders knew that Israel could easily win any conflict, even against a coalition of Arab states.

Finkelstein insists we cannot understand the Six-Day War without going back 11 years, to the 1956 Suez Crisis. That year, the Egyptian leader, Nasser, nationalized the Suez Canal — and Israel, Britain and France launched an unprovoked joint invasion of Egypt to seize the waterway back. But the United States, under President Dwight Eisenhower, opposed the attack, and pressured the tripartite invasion force to withdraw and leave the Canal to Egypt. Suez was a catastrophe for all three invading nations, and British Prime Minister Anthony Eden was forced to resign. Meanwhile, Nasser’s reputation in the Arab world, and across Africa, Asia and Latin America, rose to new heights.

Norman Finkelstein argues that the historical record shows that in 1967 Israel yearned to complete its failed mission of 1956. First, he says, Israel’s “primary goal was to neuter Nasser, to deliver a death blow to these uppity Arabs, and finish off what was called radical Arab nationalism.” He goes on that Israel’s government had a “secondary goal” — “to conquer the lands they had coveted but didn’t manage to seize in ’48: East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan.”
Israel provoked the Six-Day War in 1967, and it was not fighting for survival – Mondoweiss
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  #38  
Old 06-06-2017, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Israel's "Right To Exist"

Here's Ilan Pappe weighing in too:

Quote:
The total collapse of the Arab armies that enabled Israel to get as far as the Suez Canal and nearly occupy Damascus was a bonus the Israelis did not predict. But the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was a plan fulfilled: it was not the freak outcome of a very successful war.

The takeover plans of previous years enabled Israel to install its military rule over the West Bank and Gaza immediately after the war. The system was already successfully imposed on the Palestinian minority in Israel – those Palestinians who had survived the ethnic cleansing two decades earlier and remained inside the “Jewish state.”

Now the system and the people operating it were transferred to rule a new Palestinian group. The new version was even worse: it was built on the sheer power of the army to control every aspect of life, violating in the process basic human and civil rights.

The means of maintaining this rule have changed, but it is still intact and there is no intention to end its existence.
Israel's occupation was a plan fulfilled | The Electronic Intifada
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