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  #26  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

* Garnet starts packing her bags
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  #27  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Have you ever seen the movie Thank You for Smoking?

During the Senate testimony, Aaron Eckhart's character accuses the senator from Vermont of contributing to higher cholesterol in the U.S. by supporting Vermont cheese.

That's basically what has happened to the healthcare policy debate. Groups that oppose public healthcare have been allowed to shift the debate, so that we're not even really talking about healthcare policy anymore.

Instead, we debate the existence of "death panels", which isn't actually an issue to begin with. But it doesn't matter, because opponents to healthcare reform can now cite death panels from now until the reform movement is dead, and everyone is going to accept it as fact, even though it's a fabrication.
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfry n. glad View Post
...they parboil you first, flog you with birch switches, and then immerse you in freezing cold water.
That depends on how close the sauna is to a suiitable body of cold water. If too far for practical purposes, then a roll in the snow after will suffice.
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Health care reform ain't dead!

It's just sleeping!
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2009, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Well, IMO, the pro-reform side is a little too polite sometimes. The middle has shifted pretty far just by virtue of the fact that the right wing in this country has been allowed to get away with their lies and bigotry and flat out sociopathy for too long; and just about everyone else thinks they need to be polite about it and let them have their say.

So sure, let them have their say, and if what they say is idiotic and wrong, call them on it without tippytoeing around. Ask them where the hell they got their ideas, and why they couldn't be bothered to check them for accuracy before they made their dumb little signs and drove down to some town hall meeting.

And if what they say is selfish and evil, call them sociopaths.

And twist their dumb socialism arguments around every. single. time. and address them as though they're arguing to eliminate Medicare. It's not even dishonest. Pretty much any anti-reform argument applies perfectly to Medicare. In most cases, the arguments are more relevant.

Tell those wheezing old greediest generationers, if that's really what you want, say we do eliminate socialized medicine, but who's going to pay for your Hoveround and for your diabeetus testing equipment?

Maybe if we're not all having to foot the bill for you, productive citizens would be better able to afford their own healthcare!

Last polls I saw, the vast majority of Americans want some form of public healthcare option. And the demographics that are most opposed to it are older people. That is, those who already have socialized healthcare subsidized by everyone else.

And those people really don't deserve to be treated as though what they're demanding is reasonable.
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  #31  
Old 08-12-2009, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Why aren't you running for Popular Demagogue yet?
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  #32  
Old 08-12-2009, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Last polls I saw, the vast majority of Americans want some form of public healthcare option. And the demographics that are most opposed to it are older people. That is, those who already have socialized healthcare subsidized by everyone else.

And those people really don't deserve to be treated as though what they're demanding is reasonable.
YEAH!

Where the hell are those counter-sleazebag units? They should be out there, coolly and calmly kicking these freeper, faux-loving teabagers right smack in the teabags.

It's past time for counter-scum. Let's get flinging, monkeys!
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  #33  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

One of the obstacles to health care reform is that people who already have good health care either 1. don't care, or 2. are scared of losing their good coverage.

My employer provides a good insurance program, and we're self-insured, which means the company manages its own pool of money and thus our monthly premiums have remained relatively low.

If a public option became available, and my company decided to ditch its insurance plan to cut costs, I could very well end up worse off than I am now. If the President wants to sell people on universal coverage, he needs to sell it to people who are already happy with their coverage.

FWIW, I agree with the principle of lowering costs and getting more people a minimum acceptable standard of healthcare coverage. I also think that the only way to do that is with government funds; I think the evidence is clear that the market will not support offering coverage to people that are difficult to cover (people with chronic illnesses, low income, etc.)

It's complicated, and the Idiot Factory that's producing people like Sarah Palin isn't helping matters any (which is exactly their intention).
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

What lisarea said.

Reasonable people, on both sides of the political fence, have allowed the lunatic fringe to dominate the national conversation - on pretty much everything this last decade - and this has to stop. The lunatic fringe hides behind religion and post WWII fear of socialism, and they need to be thoroughly slapped upside the head.

And Obama needs to start to show some passion and stop being defensive, too. He needs to lead and lay some smack down. Polite convesation isn't going to cut it with the loud and rude idiocy that dominates your country right now. They've been given power and this is seriously going to bite you guys in the ass - as it has done since Bush 2.

Stand the fuck up or perish.
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  #35  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waluigi View Post
One of the obstacles to health care reform is that people who already have good health care either 1. don't care, or 2. are scared of losing their good coverage.
A lot of people seem to think they have good health insurance before they have to use it, though. (I'm not saying you don't, but that the majority of people who think that they have something to lose really have more to gain.)

What people really need to understand is that they're not safe just because they have employer provided insurance.

You Do Not Have Health Insurance « The Baseline Scenario
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  #36  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

One of the many things that has really gotten to me was Pelosi's comment that the people disrupting the town halls are Un-American.

Un-American

GODDAMMIT!!! Sarah Palin fucking handed Pelosi et al a gift on a fucking silver platter with her stupid fucking Death Panel bullshit. But instead of running with it and taking the opportunity of showing how fucking STUPID that comment was and instead of flooding the airwaves showing how it's a goddam fucking lie, she escalates the polarization with stupid fucking rhetoric of her own. Un-American.

Fuck!

*ahem* Sorry.
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  #37  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Stupid bitch. :sadcheer:
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  #38  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post
What lisarea said.

Reasonable people, on both sides of the political fence, have allowed the lunatic fringe to dominate the national conversation - on pretty much everything this last decade - and this has to stop. The lunatic fringe hides behind religion and post WWII fear of socialism, and they need to be thoroughly slapped upside the head.
He has already made it abundantly clear that he wants dissenters to just shut up. Congressional town hall meetings are being preloaded with SEIU thugs. Emails are being collected from people who make unpleasant observations about the health care plan.

So what more do you want? Concentration camps?
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  #39  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Why do you suddenly object to concentration camps anyway? You were always fine with it when there was a white president.
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

No, I want him to stop pussing footing around with heavy sighs and rational verbosity. Kick some ass. Get angry. Call Palin and her ilk out, rudely.

And as far as dissenters being silenced - no one did that better than Bush.
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  #41  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnet View Post
One of the many things that has really gotten to me was Pelosi's comment that the people disrupting the town halls are Un-American.

Un-American.
Did she say that the disruptors were un-American or did she say that the behavior - disrupting the meetings and not allowing discourse - was un-American?

I'm looking for footage, because I thought maybe it was the latter.
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  #42  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

It doesn't matter. Instead of addressing the main issues head on, mainly the lies being spread, she cuts loose with verbiage straight out of the goddam Republican play book. If she's calling the activities these people are engaging in Un-American it isn't too far fucking fetched to draw the conclusion that those who are doing so are Un-American. The fucking right wing media are practically pissing themselves over this. She just handed them another fucking weapon.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. This just pisses me off.
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  #43  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post
Call Palin and her ilk out, rudely.
Hey, I hope he does too. :)
Quote:
And as far as dissenters being silenced - no one did that better than Bush.
Really? No one?

Really?
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  #44  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by yguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post
Call Palin and her ilk out, rudely.
Hey, I hope he does too. :)
Quote:
And as far as dissenters being silenced - no one did that better than Bush.
Really? No one?

Really?
There you go again.

I disagree.

I think Ronnie did it better. That's why he was the Teflon President.
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  #45  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
A lot of people seem to think they have good health insurance before they have to use it, though. (I'm not saying you don't, but that the majority of people who think that they have something to lose really have more to gain.)
Well, we haven't had cancer or anything like that, but the prenatal care and delivery for both kids cost us $10/ea. out of pocket, and the Remicade treatments for my wife's Chron's Disease (at $3,000 a pop) have been fully covered.

I've known several people in our company that have had surgeries or chronic illnesses, and from what I can tell, it's always been covered.

I realize this is much better than the insurance at a lot of places, and above and beyond what you'd be able to find in the private (non-employer-provided) market.
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  #46  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

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  #47  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Yeah, like I said, I don't mean that your particular health insurance is worthless. Some are better than others. But no matter how good it is now, it's still tied to your employment. So if you lose your job for any reason, you'd lose your insurance along with it. Maybe sooner, maybe later.

And it's not uncommon at all for things to spiral. You get sick, you lose your job either coincidentally or intentionally (it's illegal, but it happens all the time), then you lose your insurance along with your job and find yourself uninsurable on the private market and, depending on the how sick you are, you could be unemployable as well.

Most people who think they're secure are really maybe a year and a couple of misfortunes away from complete destitution.
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  #48  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

That's where the death squads come in.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hawking
I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.
Hugh Muir's Diary | Politics | The Guardian
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  #50  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Health Care Reform Dead

"Bring back Arrested Development" :laugh:
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