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Old 04-15-2011, 01:56 PM
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Default School Uniforms

Our county school district is discussing eliminating the uniform policy (navy or white shirts and khaki pants/shorts/skirts). A lot of people are cheering this as if the restrictive dress code is the cause of sameness of thought. That somehow allowing them to express themselves through fashion is the path to individuality and innovative thinking. I think when you have captive kids learning the same curriculum, the same way, on the same schedule every day for 12 years, that it kinda doesn't matter what they're wearing while doing it.

Also, kids tend to follow along with their peers and/or the media when it comes to fashion anyway.

IMO it's also a stupid thing to be wasting time discussing. We are paying a 1% sales tax specifically because of the budget shortfall, and half our 8th graders can't read. The uniform policy shouldn't even be on the table.

Lastly, I think uniforms are easier and cheaper for busy working families, and eliminate the label/money=status issues (which was a big expensive deal when and where I grew up)

Thoughts?
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I like the idea of school uniforms, if I were smart, I would have bought the girls like 6 each of the same outfits and made them wear their own personal uniforms every day.

For me, it's a question of practicality and convenience. Also, maybe the older one's closets and drawers wouldn't be overflowing with clothes. It makes sense to me, besides for all this talk about creativity and self-expression, you know the school will come down on any kid who wears a t-shirt with a design, logo or saying that they don't approve.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Nevermind.
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Last edited by Goliath; 04-15-2011 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Apparently, certain people around here have sensibilities that are far too delicate. My most humble fucking apologies.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Ha ha ha....so funny....ha..ha heh hee ho


Dick.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

No, my avatar is that of a giant brain, not a giant dick.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:56 PM
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No, your avatar is a fucking cartoon character.

Kinda like what you're becoming
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Well, I can see this place hasn't changed much...

:plonk:
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Um, Ok.

My son's school instituted a uniform policy. It's pointless for elementary school kids. They mostly don't care what their wearing or focus on accessories. There's lots of data, suspect data by uniform manufacturers that uniforms are good for education (less disruption, gang violence), but the only non-uniform company research I found, showed that schools that had uniforms had students that didn't do as well with various educational goals.

I find uniforms expensive, as we mainly rely on used clothes. It's much more difficult to find certain colors of clothes that fit, rather than clothes that fit. So I have to end up buying new shit made in foreign countries. Also my son can wear navy, white or burgundy, thanks to fashion good luck finding any burgundy shirts anywhere.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

When we lived in Louisiana, my daughter's school required uniforms. It rankled me and my sense of individuality, but otherwise I didn't have a problem with it. That is, until we misunderstood one of the uniform rules and dressed her somewhat incorrectly. They called me and told me my daughter would be pulled out of class if we didn't get her a change of clothes.

What a waste of everyone's time. This was 1st grade and a 1st offense.

Perhaps the problem with the schools that require uniforms are not the uniform policy, but the rigid mindsets and blind adherence to authority that pervades the schools which use them.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingdai View Post
Um, Ok.

My son's school instituted a uniform policy. It's pointless for elementary school kids. They mostly don't care what their wearing or focus on accessories. There's lots of data, suspect data by uniform manufacturers that uniforms are good for education (less disruption, gang violence), but the only non-uniform company research I found, showed that schools that had uniforms had students that didn't do as well with various educational goals.

I find uniforms expensive, as we mainly rely on used clothes. It's much more difficult to find certain colors of clothes that fit, rather than clothes that fit. So I have to end up buying new shit made in foreign countries. Also my son can wear navy, white or burgundy, thanks to fashion good luck finding any burgundy shirts anywhere.
Well we don't use a manufacturer or have specific brands or anything. They can wear any khaki pants and any white or navy shirt with a collar. Plain old polo-type shirts from WalMart or Old Navy were what most wore.

They called it a uniform, but I guess it is more an extremely limited dress code. Our second hand stores are packed with them, and WalMart has polos for 5 bucks and the Old Navy and Gap outlets run specials and we have a tax free weekend. I thought it would end up being cheaper for me, but maybe not.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Quote:
rigid mindsets and blind adherence to authority that pervades the schools which use them.
Well yeah. We are talking about the largest bureaucracy in the country. The public school system is nothing but rigid mindset and adherence to authority
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

That's what we have, a limited dress code. It can be any brand, but only certain colors/styles. The shirts have to have a collar, shorts have to be knee length, stuff like that.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I don't really understand how those uniform policies really help, but I don't have any experience with them.

It seems as though they usually just prescribe a few acceptable colors and general measurements or something. But kids are smart and they're devious and they are WAY WAY into weird little semiotics, and there will still be expensive blue shirts and cheap ones, and different cuts and colors and maybe stitching or labels or whatever that they can apply class and clique markers to. I can't imagine that a uniform code is all that effective in stopping that.

And I'm also not sure it's even a good idea. It's one of those things humans just naturally do and always have, so maybe it has some important role in their development somehow.

Kids don't have a lot of control over their lives, so their hair and clothes and these little things they do have control over are extra important. That's why teenagers do the things they do.

Plus and also, those uniform codes always seem to favor polo shirts, which everyone knows are the Official Shirt of the North American White Belly Asshole, so they're not even banning gang affiliations. They're just telling them which gang.
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  #14  
Old 04-15-2011, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I wore a uniform for 12 years (different uniform for elementary school and high school, though). Nobody really cared in grade school and by the time we got the high school, the uniform wasn't half bad, once you hiked up the skirt, of course.

This was private school, though, so obviously it's a whole different issue. It was definitely a leveler for us. The school was primarily kids of well-off families, but this being a Catholic school attached to a religious order, there was a significant contingent of refugees from various hot-spots around the world who were being given an excellent education on the house. They got a full scholarship, at least one square hot meal a day and the uniforms. I think things would have been much harder on them socially if they had had to withstand the daily scrutiny of some of the high-end Italian clothes snobs we had at that school.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

ETA: I TYPE SLOW, LISAREA. STOP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF SLOW PEOPLE LIKE ME.

If kids can wear any brand, though, that takes away from the status/style argument, because there are differences between stylish khakis and out of fashion ones. Little kids may not care, but older kids are probably going to have some kind of preferred brand, even if it doesn't make any sense.

An actual uniform and use of it over a long period of time would probably be cheaper, because hand-me-downs would be the norm. Or at least that is something I observed happening at one private school--the girls could only wear this random little dress that looked like some 1930's housedress. Pretty much everyone wore used uniforms because it was a hassle to get new ones made, and they weren't that cheap. That, I can see as affecting the style/status side of things, because everyone has to look like an odd duck and the culture was to wear used dresses. But if half the kids are wearing hand me downs and the other half are wearing shiny, new clothes in the latest cuts, then there is going to be a difference.

But kids are going to be kids anyway, so unless you give them all the same haircuts and makeup, etc., too, I think that it's not going to remove any distraction that clothes are going to provide. Although RA went to a private school that banned wearing makeup for middle schoolers during the time he was there because it got to a ridiculously distracting level for the girls. Since I have a school picture of myself from middle school in which I am wearing as much makeup as humanly possible, I don't find it that hard to believe. (I looked so cute with bright green eye shadow, which matched my bright green shirt, with my long, red, permed hair!)

Improvements after uniforms may be nothing more than some sort of Hawthorne effect. Maybe if there is actual gang activity, it makes sense for safety. That is pretty much my only reason to support uniforms.

Last edited by wildernesse; 04-15-2011 at 07:26 PM. Reason: MEANIE SAYING THINGS WITH MORE HUMOR THAN ME ALERT
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
rigid mindsets and blind adherence to authority that pervades the schools which use them.
Well yeah. We are talking about the largest bureaucracy in the country. The public school system is nothing but rigid mindset and adherence to authority
That's a pretty broad brush to paint with. I'm relatively pleased with our current school system (grade school at least), administration and all. Then again, I'm not really seeing the warty side of it very much with my perfect angels.:yup:
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I object in principle to dress codes, personally hated the dress codes at the schools I attended, and that wasn't even "you have to wear X uniform." It pushes one of my buttons to say you can't wear what you want.

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Old 04-15-2011, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

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Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post
This was private school, though, so obviously it's a whole different issue.
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:50 AM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I'm as civil libertarian as I think they come, but from a parent's perspective, I like the idea of uniforms, mainly as a money-saver, but also as a time-saver.
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I am not seeing any money saving nor time saving.
I have to search and buy new clothes, when I previously I got used clothes and hand me downs, and argue my son into wearing a shirt with collar and the correct colors, when previously he could wear what he liked.
Maybe some one some where is saving money and/or time, but it's definitely not this household.
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
Here's another bunch of ignorant shit: school uniforms. Bad theory! The idea that if kids wear uniforms to school it helps keep order. Don't these schools do enough damage making all these kids think alike? Now they're gonna get them to look alike too? And it's not a new idea. I first saw it in old newsreels from the 1930's, but it was hard to understand because the narration was in German!
As usual, I really have nothing to add to what Carlin said :cookiemonster:
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

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Originally Posted by Qingdai View Post
I am not seeing any money saving nor time saving.
I have to search and buy new clothes, when I previously I got used clothes and hand me downs, and argue my son into wearing a shirt with collar and the correct colors, when previously he could wear what he liked.
Maybe some one some where is saving money and/or time, but it's definitely not this household.
Apparently you don't have a 14 or older girl who could spend a parent's entire income on her wardrobe and it still wouldn't be enough. And the amount of time spent on choosing what to wear on any give day probably ran close to an hour. Uniforms would have solved some of that, at least in getting ready for school.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

I'm in two minds about this.

The first mind is that children are humans too and should be able to make their own choices, with limits of course. State schools are designed to churn kids through with as little fuss as possible. They care little for individuality, they just want the kids to behave and if they learn how to read, write and do basic sums, then that's all for the good. Part of their behaviour control is to quash any semblance of individuality. A principal once told me it was to differentiate between kids playing on the oval and a predator coming to grab one. I asked what was stopping the predator donning similar coloured clothes. Crickets.

I've met draconian administrators in schools but the law in Queensland says that children cannot be penalised academically for uniform violations. If your state has similar laws brush up on them.

The second mind is that kids can be vengeful, nasty turds who will pick on a child for any small reason, including class differences. Class differences are most obvious in children by the clothing they wear.
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

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Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
The second mind is that kids can be vengeful, nasty turds who will pick on a child for any small reason, including class differences. Class differences are most obvious in children by the clothing they wear.
This. Hugely this. I dreaded non-school uniform days as a child.
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: School Uniforms

That does make sense if you're actually talking about uniforms (although it also brings up a lot of other issues, like forcing parents to buy from a specific place). But when public schools in the US adopt 'uniforms,' they're really just guidelines on the colors and types of clothes they can wear, so the class markers are still there.

It seems to me that a lot of the justifications are just sidestepping the real problems of classism and bullying in the schools, and it seems it'd be much more effective if the schools just addressed that head on.

Also, the problems with designer clothes and stuff can be very neatly avoided if you are proactive in raising your child to be a punk or some kind of hipster or something, so that by the time they reach adolescence, they are contemptuous of conspicuous consumerism.
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