General LGBTQIA issues thread

[LadyShea]

OMG. That's an actual apology complete with introspection and a vow to learn and grow! I thought those were extinct!

[livius drusus]

I'm not sure I get the head vs. heart thing. So he has bigoted homophobic thoughts but they aren't underpinned by emotion?

[ChuckF]

He does have a point though. Nothing ruins a bunch of sweaty, muscular athletes showering together, snapping towels, and generally hanging out in the nude more than some gay dude maybe seeing your wiener.

[LadyShea]

I just assumed he was unable to articulate why he felt conflicted. Maybe he took on bigoted attitudes without really considering that they should have a basis, or maybe he just went with his biases and then found that they weren't really defensible when examined from an different POV (reading his own words)... but he still made a quality apology. So that's something to go on.

I have felt conflicted when forced to examine my own biases like that before. It kind of sucks "How can I feel that way, and feel that feeling that way is wrong at the same time?" Like there are two different sets of values stuffed into one brain.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm not sure I get the head vs. heart thing. So he has bigoted homophobic thoughts but they aren't underpinned by emotion?

Yeah, its definitely muddled, when I read the article that first sentence of his apology made me think there was going to be a really stupid non-apology to follow.

I think he might have been going with a Christian meme of knowing or having a truth in ones heart which is preeminent over thought. I eventually parsed that sentence as meaning something along the lines that he had these thoughts but they did not reflect his actual being.


It actually made me think of this by clutch

Mkoan, I think you're doing the right thing by writing out your reasoning about trans persons and holding your reasons at arm's length. When I read what you wrote, the pointless prescriptivism and prejudice really jumps out at me. With any luck, it will jump out at you, too.

Many times I have learned that my views or attitudes were indefensible just by writing or speaking my reasons. But I rarely went into the process with as clear and honest a sense of the contingency of my attitudes as you showed in your last post.

Culliver played college ball at South Carolina, and (I checked wiki) graduated high school from North Carolina. I think that he didn't think much about his comments at the time. I think what he said would in many places and most definitely Southern communities and Black communities in particular would be perfectly acceptable. I figure that after the initial response to the story, (hell maybe it was when someone from the San Francisco organization talked to him.) he realized how fucked up what he said really was, and he was trying to express that he is not the sort of person who feels that bigotry is okay.

I freely admit, I might be reading too much into it.

[The Lone Ranger]

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I've certainly had that sort of experience: You know, when you find yourself forced to think about something that you've never before seriously considered, because you were brought up to think "that's the way things are." It's a bit of a shock to suddenly realize that something you've been doing for a good long time is completely indefensible when you stop to give it a moment's thought.



For example, I grew up in rural North Carolina, and I was taught that the term "Nigger" was the proper way to refer to an African-American person. And it never occurred to me to think that there was anything at all wrong with the term. Until one of my teachers told me in no uncertain terms that the term was both extremely offensive and very racist.

To this day, I can easily recall how mortified -- nay, horrified -- I was by that revelation. Especially because it dawned on me that I should have known better, if only it had ever occurred to give the matter a moment's thought.

[The Lone Ranger]

As an aside, that's why I try not to let myself get too upset by all the horribly sexist, racist, homophobic, and otherwise ignorant and bigoted things I see from my Facebook "friends" -- and that I often still hear from my relatives. It's all too easy for me to imagine thinking exactly that way myself.

Heck, I was taught that that's precisely the "proper" way to think -- and that anyone who disagreed was "obviously" immoral and so shouldn't be listened to. I was lucky enough to escape a lot of that, but I know plenty of otherwise perfectly decent people (heck, two of my own sisters) who appear to sincerely believe that anyone who isn't a Bible-Thumping Christian who fears and hates homosexuals, atheists, Muslims, "evolutionists" and "liberals" is an evil person who is doomed to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Sadly, most of them appear to be incapable of seriously considering the possibility that these views might be mistaken and so cannot or will not consider the possibility. So, my general experience has been that it's more or less hopeless to try to have a discussion on such matters. So long as you avoid such "hot button" topics, they're perfectly decent, kind, respectful, thoughtful and open-minded people -- but touch on one of those "forbidden" subjects and suddenly the hateful rhetoric starts to fly.


Interestingly, my oldest sister was pretty deep into the "homosexuality is a choice, and an evil one at that" mindset until her oldest son told her that he's gay, and that it's certainly not something that he chose. To her great credit, my sister sat down and reevaluated her thinking on the matter, and has become a staunch defender of her son and his "lifestyle."


This doesn't stop the other two from posting nasty comments on Facebook about the "Gay Agenda" and whatnot, but it's a start. Though I'm pretty certain this is why the oldest no longer invites the other two to the Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings. (I've never asked, as it's none of my business.)

[The Lone Ranger]

Heck, I hope I'm not derailing the thread or anything.

But it occurs to me that this sort of thing helps explain why so many of my Facebook "friends" are so viciously anti-intellectual, especially when it comes to higher education.


I grew up in an environment where racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. were considered not just acceptable, but proper. Similarly, it was more or less literally an article of faith with virtually everyone I knew that if you weren't a Christian you were the scum of the Earth and deserved to burn in Hell.

I'm pretty-much certain that the only reason this attitude didn't entirely fly with me was because I was always a voracious reader, and that helped me to understand that not everyone thought the way that I'd been taught was "right." Which got me to thinking.

And that got me to asking questions. Questions that did not always exactly make me popular. Indeed, I eventually stopped going to church precisely because I was dissatisfied with the fact that when they couldn't answer my questions, they'd tell me that I should simply accept their claims on faith. And by the time I was 12 or 13 or so, I'd read far too much to not recognize a cop-out when I heard it. But what really convinced me to stop going were all the snide comments about being "too smart for my own good" and the not at all subtle suggestions that it was wrong of me to ask questions, and the not-at-all subtle suggestions that I was a bad person at heart because I wouldn't just shut up, stop thinking, and unquestioningly accept that what they were saying was true.

By the time I got to high school, I was very-much an outsider. But I eventually decided that constantly being called a "weirdo" and derided for spending all my free time reading wasn't such a bad thing. After a time, I even came to embrace such scorn as a badge of honor, in a sense.


Even so, when I finally went to college and -- for the first time in my life -- got to know people from very different cultures and backgrounds, it was an eye-opening and somewhat humbling experience. I came back from my freshman year of college quite a different person than I had been when I had left.

[lisarea]

Yes!

People have these bigassed collections of received wisdom, usually culturally biased, that they classify as 'common sense.' That's why, 99% of the time someone says something is common sense, it turns out it's just a bigassed cognitive bias designed to reinforce their specific culture and ignore everyone else's.

And that is why, whenever someone says, "Common sense isn't common" I think, "YES! You are correct! KEEP GOING! THINK THIS SHIT THROUGH!" but they never do.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by lisarea

whenever someone says, "Common sense isn't common" I think, "YES! You are correct! KEEP GOING! THINK THIS SHIT THROUGH!" but they never do.

This timesed by 1 million.

[koan]

What are the opinions here about Dan Savage?
For points of consideration:
Top Six Reasons Why You Should Hate Dan Savage

1. Dan Savage hates trans people and uses transphobic slurs.
2. Dan Savage believes that bisexuals do not and should not exist.
3. Dan Savage has admonished women for not putting up with their partner’s sexual desires and has criticized female rape survivors’ stories.
4. Dan Savage thinks that racist gay white men are less of a threat to African-Americans than homophobic African-Americans are to gay people.
5. Dan Savage thinks asexuals are secretly “fags”.
6. Dan Savage is fatphobic.

He's been glitterbombed three times.

Personally, I think his Savage Love column is/was fantastic. I didn't always agree with everything he said but I love that he is saying it and that he has been witty and clever enough to reach a huge audience.

So, I admit that I currently have bias against transsexuals, ending with a comment that I want to understand better. That is responded to with predicted rantology*. Is the rant response useful? Should Savage be glitterbombed or would it be more useful to use his comments as a way to open even deeper discussions in search of universal understanding? Understanding should be the goal both inside and outside the community and I don't think rantology helps bring people to the table. It usually just makes people backtrack and pretend they misspoke or were misunderstood.

*rantology- a word I created (though apparently Ministry beat me to it) to describe the philosophy that the best response to hearing something you don't like is to verbally whip and berate the person who brought on your ire.

[Ari]

Savage is frustrating in that he hits the nail on the head enough that people accept or let slide his obvious bigotries. Amusingly enough you can see similar aspects in Buck Angel an FtM white porn performer.

Overall I give him a due to his disbelief of Polyamory, bisexuality and trans.

[Ymir's blood]

While Mr. Savage has certainly proven himself to be no friend of asexuals, or anyone who isn't cis-sexual, gay or straight, white and male, that list is wrong with its description of what he said regarding asexuality. The asexual who wrote to him was in a relationship with a guy. Savage said, "But… um… I couldn’t help but think, as I read your letter, that your boyfriend is either a fool or a fag."

He's also made a number of other nasty statements, even appearing in a documentary about asexuals doing nothing but mocking.

[erimir]

Not clear where Dan has a huge problem with polyamory... He certainly has said more against monogamy than polyamory from what I can tell.

Also not sure where the idea is that he's no friend of anyone not white, male and cissexual... If you pick out only the worst columns from his history, you could make that case. I don't really see it as a consistent pattern. But I suppose racial issues don't usually come up THAT much in his letters, since it's not relevant to a lot of sexual dilemmas.

I read Savage's columns and daily letters, etc. and I don't really agree with that assessment. Those quotes mostly don't show what they claim to show and/or they're really old.

1. I don't think Dan would answer the same way nowadays. That letter is 10 years old. He has said transphobic things in the past, but on the whole, I'd say he's a trans ally.

He certainly doesn't disbelieve in them.

2. He doesn't say bisexuals do not and should not exist, but that gay men should not date them if they're looking for long-term relationships because bisexuals will give into homophobic societal pressure to be in relationships with the opposite sex/pretend to be straight while doing so.

I can see how that's offensive, but it can't be paraphrased as "bisexuals do not and should not exist." And it's a 14 year old letter and I have seen that he's changed his opinions since then. As a current reader, I don't think you can even remotely say that his views on bisexuals are that they don't exist (or that male bisexuals don't exist).

3. "Putting up with their partners desires" they say this like it's some awful evil. The man said something about wanting to put his balls in her vagina, and this is supposed to be something we agree is beyond the pale? Yeah, screw this blogger. That's not an awful thing to want. I don't share the desire, but it's pretty harmless. I can understand that it's surprising and maybe not something she would be into, but he was admonishing her for reacting with a surprised "What?!" and thinking he's some kind of freak, not saying you have to do this even if you detest it, or that you have to engage in any activity your partner wants. He says that people should be willing to try out their partners kinks (within reason) - and really, is putting balls in the vagina anything as crazy as asking to piss in your mouth or spank him while wearing a full body latex suit or hardcore BDSM? It's pretty mild as far as kinks go. I don't think there's something awful about Dan's philosophy that you should be willing to at least give it a try. You don't have to do it again if it's really awful, nor does he say you're obligated to do it every time if it's something that does nothing for you.

The second one... He had said that it's not rape to have sex with someone who's sleeping if she consented to sex in that scenario while she was awake (that is, she said "You can have sex with me while I'm sleeping tonight"). She wrote in to say she disagreed and then tagged an "I was raped" at the end.

But this was not her telling a story about her rape, it was clearly just attached to lend her opinion more weight. It is not a generic case of him just denying a story of rape. Even so, I can see thinking that that's assholish. He didn't need to add that in to disagree with her. But I don't think it's the cardinal sin it's being made out to be.

4. Are we supposed to hold the opposite as obvious? As far as voting power is concerned, however, homophobic African-Americans DO kinda outnumber racist white gay men. So in at least that sense, it's kinda true. There are better reasons to find those comments problematic than the assertion that black homophobia is a bigger problem for gays (as a whole) than gay racism is for blacks (as a whole). At any rate, Dan has apologized for those comments.

5. The boyfriend in that letter was not identified as being asexual. The letter writer said she was bisexual and informed her boyfriend, who then said he was willing to make it work. He didn't say "Oh, I'm asexual too!" so the tumblr blogger is guilty of assuming that only an asexual would be ok with having a relationship with an asexual! Since it would be natural for him to say he was also asexual if he indeed was, rather than saying "he's willing to find alternative ways of expressing their love," then I'm sorry, but yeah, that does sound to me like a sign that he might be gay. Savage neglected the possibility that the boyfriend is also asexual or has an abnormally low sex drive, but again, that can't be paraphrased as "asexuals are secretly fags."

6. Maybe a little bit.

On the "tranny" word, that's something that not all trans people agree on. My (transgendered) sister used to use that word frequently herself. And personally, I didn't think of it as an especially hateful word, so it doesn't stick out to me like a racial slur would as something you shouldn't say. There is a kind of lack of a less clinical sounding term for trans people. But he has again, changed his behavior and overall I'd say he's a trans ally. But yes, you can find old posts of him saying trans-phobic things if you look back a few years.

At any rate, I don't get the point of this pedantic crap which seems to be searching for anything to say that someone is a horrible bigot based on some indirect interpretation rather than focusing on their overall behavior. I also saw a comment about how Savage was somehow awful for creating a tumblr page for LGBT people to express their appreciation towards straight allies. This somehow makes him transphobic or homophobic or something? I mean, I can get it if you think it's kind of a dumb idea, but overreacting like it's a reason to hate him for being a bigot just makes me think you're the asshole who needs to feel holier-than-thou.

One thing I do like about Dan is that he is willing to go back and say he was wrong on a lot of these things. And I think he has a more productive approach than the people who just want to dismiss someone who says something not totally correct (in quotes mined out of twenty years of weekly and daily columns) according to their theories of oppression as a bigot who must be hated.

[Qingdai]

Yeah I agree with ermir. I read him pretty frequently, and he says that some of his past advice was without introspection or knowledge of the actual issues. He has since addressed the transgender issues.
He also sometime answers questions drunk. I take any one who offers to be an authority with a grain if salt, but give credit for saying that you don't know stuff and referring to people who do and for saying, "I was wrong and this is why." Both which I've seen Dan Savage do.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by koan

Here's an issue I have that might have been brought up earlier: Discrimination by gays towards bisexuals. Trust me, it happens. I have friends that won't go to the club with me because they're afraid it would tarnish their hardcore pure status. Or they'll go but only if I have someone else to "hang out with" while I'm there.

Bi is really dissed by a large part of the community. They think we can't make up our minds and aren't pure.

On top of that, one of the friends who has said that is worried because although she is pure gay, she's been in a threesome with a guy and now she is being told she's not gay enough. This criticism came from her girlfriend who... used to be married and has a kid. She told my friend that she had a dream where my friend was dating a guy who was really feminine and was really happy. "See? I knew it!" Says the girl as if her dream confirms reality.

I feel sorry for my friend because she actually worries about all that crap. If I ever hear anyone question whether I'm gay enough I just question how they decide on the line of accepting people no matter what gender they prefer. There is either an "acceptable" line or there isn't. If they don't want a line, don't draw one.

Though I don't really worry about it, that could be because I've never tried to join a gay softball team.

One of my lesbian friends likes to constantly remind me how she doesn't trust bisexuals in general, making this pretense that we as a group are more likely to cheat in a relationship or something. She's usually full of shit, but that particular opinion is always disheartening, especially considering all the support I've given to her.

She's not the only person to have thrown that curve ball at my head, either. There's this perception that bisexuality is something people eventually grow out of.

Honestly, sometimes it just sucks. It's so much a part of my identity and to me it's a pretty simple thing. If I love someone, I love them. I don't care what they're packing, you know? That doesn't mean I'm not going to be loyal to my relationship.

Regardless, it isn't easy. It takes a special person to overlook that about you and to be unconditional about it and not turn it into a trust issue or some asshole prejudice.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by koan

My beef about "bi-phobia" is not to just say "oh, poor me, I'm so misunderstood," I'll admit to my own area of bias. I currently have no appreciation for men or women that feel they were born the wrong gender and think they have to have sex change operations.

I'm sure they have their reasons but we live in a world (if you're in one that lets you get the operation) where you can just fuck whoever you want. So what does it matter which hole or what sex organs you have? A lot of people don't like their noses. Or the size of their breasts. Some people who are crippled think they should have legs that work. Just because they can do a surgery that makes you look different doesn't mean they should. I think you should learn to live in and love the body you were given. Sure people can have breast implants... but they shouldn't. That dude with useless legs has a better argument. We just haven't (outside of Criminal Minds) found a way to switch his legs. But should we? Is it just self indulgent vanity or do people have a human right (see inalienable rights thread) to be surgically altered to suit their mind? I actually worked with a woman who used to be a gay man and she and her partner both got sex changed to be lesbians. Then they broke up. Now she's a lesbian who used to a be a gay man. See why I might struggle with this issue?

I'm admitting this is a flaw in my reasoning ability but at the moment I just see it as an issue of self loathing. The sex change operation, to me, doesn't actually make them a "real" woman or man it makes them someone with a vanity inspired enhancement surgery.

But I want to understand it. I mostly feel like a man in a woman's body but I'm satisfied with looking androgynous. So what gives?

I want to point out that the rate of suicide attempts among transgender people is beyond upsetting.

http://www.livescience.com/11208-hig...er-people.html

I don't know if you've had the chance to become friends with a transgender person, but I found in just knowing one person and listening to how they've reasoned the decision to transition, I was gravely ignorant.

Again, this is a matter of personal identity. When another person refuses to accept you as the person you think you are, it's eats you up inside.

In regards to the woman I referred to in the last post, she was equally prejudiced towards the idea of being transgender. They worked together and had known each other for sometime, but when the decision to transition came up, she not only refused to use male pronouns (after a legal name change) but acted as if being transgender was a joke.

I really don't give a fuck what anyone's personal opinion about it is, if someone can't respect another person's personal identity when they are open about it, they obviously have a problem of their own they need to figure out.

In this case it's an obvious superiority complex.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Demimonde

I identified greatly with the poetry of Walt Whitman and Alan Ginsberg as a young woman. (Gay males.)

Walt Whitman was gay!?

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

People form gender identities far before they become aware of sex, never mind determine what kind of people they wish to have sex with. Transgender people feel they have been born in the wrong body from earliest consciousness.

Hell, some people's parents are told their kid is going to be a boy or a girl until birth and find out the opposite. I haven't looked into that enough to write intelligently about it, but I have also heard of men who's bodies have rejected testosterone and women who's bodies have refused estrogen. That alone makes me wonder about what we do not understand concerning physiological/ neurological conditioning in regards to gender.

I remember a straight girl I have known since middle school used to take estrogen treatment because of excessive body hair.

[Gonzo]

I want to warn I'm having trouble writing about this because it's so personal to me, so forgive me if I'm not expressing my points well enough. Especially as someone who is comfortable and happy to be a man.

Originally Posted by lisarea

I don't fully understand transgendered issues either. I just can't relate at all. I can speculate that if I had a penis and people were calling me a man, I might be pretty mad about that. I don't know, though. I can't really entirely conceive of such a thing.

I don't really know what gender is or what its effects are, but that's probably because I am cisgendered. I have never had to deal with identity issues or with being misgendered by other people, or with hating my body beyond getting a little mad at it sometimes when I'm sick or something. And a lot of transgendered people do have a deep and fundamental loathing of their genitals and their secondary sex characteristics. Not just an idea that it would be nice if something were tweaked here and there, but loathing.

It clicked with me for a few reasons. Firstly, as a bisexual man, I am extremely comfortable with androgyny. To me, femininity balances out who I am because sometimes I lean more towards masculinity, and to me it's a way of interacting to different situations and people. I really think the emphasis on MALE VS FEMALE in our society is counter-productive to human evolution. That, to me, should be obvious from a feminist perspective.

Further, when relating to my friend (who is female-to-male), the amount of obstacles there have been to achieving that have been overwhelming at times. Aside from dealing with prejudice (losing his job a week after coming out to his boss), not having the money to start hormone therapy, and frankly having lived a life with three males who constantly demeaned him *as a girl* (an abusive father, a rapist, a stalker) from his point of view he has been so consistently emasculated that it's been painful.

Relating that to how I feel about my own androgyny and the importance to me of having a masculine and a feminine side, I don't find being transgender hard to understand.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Ari

*If you want to be cool and hip many bisexuals are using the term pansexual to acknowledge gender isn't binary.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by koan

I know that my bias is based on a too small sample size. I know that I am wrong. I'm bi so of course I'm happy being a man in a woman's body. I'd love myself either way. lol

Transgender people can be bisexual, too.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

As an aside, that's why I try not to let myself get too upset by all the horribly sexist, racist, homophobic, and otherwise ignorant and bigoted things I see from my Facebook "friends" -- and that I often still hear from my relatives. It's all too easy for me to imagine thinking exactly that way myself.

I see sexist crap from every side...

[koan]

An admission of fallibility is important. Dan Savage is not a bully, he has strong opinions but he doesn't use them to spread hate.

Inter-community intolerance is pretty rampant. I was earlier in this thread told I'm "transphobic" but it's not true. I have no fear of transpeople. I don't understand them and I don't foresee myself dating one, but I'm not afraid of them and I don't think anyone else should be because, other than glitterbombing the occasional person, they aren't a very intimidating group of people. I don't think gay people who question the legitimacy of bisexuals are automatically biphobic. I'm not a very scary person (that I know of) and they aren't afraid of me, they just don't want to date me. That's fine. I'm much more comfortable dating other bisexuals. I have come to assume a lot of people don't like me and have learned to live with that.

The problem isn't when someone says "I don't understand you", the problem is when they say "I don't like you because of your sexuality". My not understanding trans is really just because they are a very small group and the two I've known were not very nice people so I didn't have a chance to learn about their lifestyle. When I meet a nice trans I hope they are open to explaining it to me. What I don't like is people who lie, and that holds true for heteros, gays, bis, and trans... and all the other letters. For example, I was annoyed when a trans I worked with started talking about what it was like to have periods and go through menopause for two reasons: she lied about having gone through it and she made herself look stupid because she got it wrong. She snapped nastily at me when I tried to explain she'd got it wrong so she's continued to lie to people and continued to "out" herself via her stupidity. That doesn't help her cause. Trans people that I've met haven't wanted to be understood, they've wanted to pretend they aren't trans.

Just because you're LGBT doesn't mean you're a nice person. I've heard lesbians bash and make fun of another lesbian because she was attracted to a "lipstick lesbian," (apparently not all lesbians are created equal) a gay man who was utterly disgusted by the female body and made jokes about "snail trails" and was sickened by the thought of lesbians having sex, been told I'm not gay enough to hang out with, and caused a scandal because, after being told I was delusional that a guy at the club was interested in me because the guy was "pure gay boy" I commented that the guy should have thought of that before he had sex with me. I'm no longer welcome at that club. Apparently they missed the fact that it was me who had been used.

In fact, I've seen as much hate towards the gay community coming from the gay community as from heteros. They don't go around beating each other to a pulp so no one has really been addressing the problem. Being rejected by the heterosexual community is tough but being rejected by the gay community... well, that kind of devastation contributes to suicide. It is a big problem.



Yeah, I know, "cool story, bro".
I bolded the main points for those who found it TLDR

[Ensign Steve]

FWIW, Gonzo, everything I have ever been told I will grow out of, I haven't. In fact I get more comfortable with myself, my choices, and my identity the older I get.