Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > Lifestyle

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-30-2011, 07:40 PM
lisarea's Avatar
lisarea lisarea is offline
Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: XVCMLXXXI
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 3
Default Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

These articles are all relevant to my interests:

The embarssment of online handles | MetaFilter

As too many people are already painfully aware, I'm all over any opportunity to discuss how current trends in social norms are NOT TO MY PERSONAL LIKING. NOT. TO. MY. PERSONAL. LIKING.

So ha ha, I want to fight about this stuff AGAIN.

Back when I first started internetting, one of the biggest appeals was being able to post in some at least semi-anonymous form. That is, I could discuss things without a bunch of weird, confounding social layers and have the things I was talking about stand on their own merits.

And although that's become more and more difficult to maintain, I have tried to keep at least some degree of compartmentalization to my online communications. Mostly just in terms of using different usernames and identifying information on different sites. Not because I think it's some failsafe type of anonymity--I've actually had people recognize and creep on me to various degrees when I was posting under different usernames--but just because I don't understand why someone would casually feel the need to follow me around like that. And, again, a major appeal of internet forums is the lack of social context. I still like being able to have what I'm saying be taken out of context of social perceptions sometimes.

It's only recently that I've begun to appreciate how many people not only don't do that, but don't even understand why someone would. I realize a lot of this is a result of the normalizing of Facebook terms of service and shit, but I'm wondering how widespread and how accepted that really is.

So, apart from hiding porn browsing or something else you actively don't want people to know for some articulable reason, do you post anonymously or use different IDs on different forums or for different subject areas?

If so, what are those usernames? What passwords do you use to sign in to them? What ranges of IP addresses you post from, and what are the MAC addresses of the internet devices in your home and workplace? What is your daily schedule like, what pets do you have, and what are you wearing right now?
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (07-08-2011), Clutch Munny (04-28-2015), Crumb (07-01-2011), Demimonde (06-30-2011), Ensign Steve (06-30-2011), freemonkey (07-01-2011), Gonzo (07-01-2011), Kael (07-01-2011), Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), LadyShea (06-30-2011), Leesifer (07-01-2011), livius drusus (06-30-2011), Naru (06-30-2011), Qingdai (06-30-2011), ravenscape (06-30-2011), SharonDee (07-01-2011), Sock Puppet (07-18-2011), specious_reasons (06-30-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015), viscousmemories (07-01-2011), vremya (06-30-2011), Watser? (06-30-2011), wildernesse (07-01-2011), Ymir's blood (07-03-2011)
  #2  
Old 06-30-2011, 07:53 PM
Qingdai's Avatar
Qingdai Qingdai is offline
Dogehlaugher -Scrutari
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northwest
Gender: Female
Posts: XVCXIII
Images: 162
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Wait, where's the poll?

OK, I'm for it.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (06-30-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011)
  #3  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:04 PM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is online now
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMMCMXIX
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Well, I'm eventually changing my legal name to Ari, so not really that anonymous.

In high school I started posting to a sword forum. One of their requirements was using a real name, and that small step really made a difference in the quality of the posts. I've taken that to other forums. Somehow asking people to stamp their official name on things really cuts down the amount of shit they talk.
FF should never move to this policy, it would go silent here.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:14 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I generally use different usernames depending on context because I don't want to mix my Fundamentalist Atheist with my Infertile Lady or Adoptive Mom or Mom or Professional.

I don't see it as much different than changing behavior slightly depending on the situation. I don't talk the same to other people as I do to my husband, I don't share bikini area self surgery stories with work colleagues, I don't talk about certain stuff with my mom that I do with a girlfriend...that kind of thing.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
lisarea (07-01-2011), SharonDee (07-01-2011)
  #5  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:38 PM
Watser?'s Avatar
Watser? Watser? is offline
Fishy mokey
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
Posts: LMMLXX
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Exactly, nobody is completely the same person with everyone they meet. You don't show the same sides of your personality with everyone. Why would you want to do that online?

I have several accounts under different user names at different places. I do notice that people respond very differently to those different user names, especially names that are vaguely Muslim.
__________________
:typingmonkey:
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:39 PM
lisarea's Avatar
lisarea lisarea is offline
Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: XVCMLXXXI
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 3
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Well, yeah, trolling or being a dick, though, is what I'd call a concrete (or articulable) motivation.*

Do you never really have an interest, though, in just compartmentalizing, or in discussing something without social context? For a relatively concrete example, I have in the past and often still do use gender neutral user IDs on forums for technical subjects, because without the social context of being a lady or being some identifiable person, I can say things without people filtering it through all their personal bias.

And even when it's not as concrete as not wanting to be profiled by demographic, I like being able to talk about things sometimes without any personal context. IOW, it doesn't matter who I am, where I live, whether I have kids, whatever, all of which is distracting from the topic at hand. Not having identifiable traits like that discourages the kind of weird personal filtering that people do unconsciously all the time, and forces them to focus on what you're saying rather than on what they think your motivations might be and things like that. (I mean, people still speculate sometimes, but at least then I get to lol heartily at how they are almost always comically wrong.)

That was to Ari. I had to solve a mystery mid-poast, so I missed some sneaky in-betweens.

* A fun trolling fact is that a while back, my son and I were talking, and we discovered that we have both independently used the same username to troll sometimes, inspired by the same exact thing. GENETICS!

Last edited by lisarea; 06-30-2011 at 08:43 PM. Reason: IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION ALERT!
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (07-08-2011), Ari (06-30-2011), Demimonde (06-30-2011), Gonzo (07-01-2011), Kael (07-01-2011), livius drusus (06-30-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015)
  #7  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:46 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I use totally generic/gender neutral usernames on like eBay, Craigslist, and the few forums I signed up for about camping and campers

I don't have a great need to remove social context, because most things I do online (when I am not using my real name) are somewhat social in nature.

I don't discuss technical shit or whatever.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:50 PM
Ensign Steve's Avatar
Ensign Steve Ensign Steve is offline
He's back! for your fucking cheetos
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
Posts: XXMXDCXXXI
Images: 66
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I have used either my real name or Ensign Steve since I adopted that handle circa 2002. I don't compartmentalize shit, so there is a lot of overlap (for example I use my real name on facebook but the url is facebook.com/ensignsteve) which you would think would confuse the hell out of people but in reality most people don't notice or care. I get a hell of a lot more "were you in the navy?" than I get "who is steve?" which I think is pretty funny.

I sort of regret and sort of don't regret having a male handle as opposed to a gender-neutral one. When I'm posting on topics where my gender is relevant (feminism, athletics, health) I need to either use my real name or end every relevant post with "I am female, btw". Lame, but I can't really blame anyone for assuming I'm male by default. I tried using the stupid, cutesy handle "Perl Girl" for a little while, but it didn't take, plus I hardly code in Perl anymore.
__________________
:kiwf::smurf:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Gonzo (07-01-2011), LadyShea (06-30-2011), The Man (03-27-2015)
  #9  
Old 06-30-2011, 09:31 PM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is online now
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMMCMXIX
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Do you never really have an interest, though, in just compartmentalizing, or in discussing something without social context? For a relatively concrete example, I have in the past and often still do use gender neutral user IDs on forums for technical subjects, because without the social context of being a lady or being some identifiable person, I can say things without people filtering it through all their personal bias.
Oh certainly. I just don't post on that many forums, but can see the use of a neutral name. I'm sure there are some places where I don't want them to immediately assume I'm Jewish.

I do however have vastly different names for online gaming characters, as I see them as individual characters.

ETA: White male guilt/abuse clause, being white and male I am shielded from the stupidity that is talking with white males as a non white male. Which is rather nice. My GF online games under mostly masculine names because it's easier to be taken seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-30-2011, 10:34 PM
specious_reasons's Avatar
specious_reasons specious_reasons is offline
here to bore you with pictures
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: MMCXXI
Images: 8
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I'm specious_reasons everywhere, because I really only have one online identity I want to maintain. I'd say SR is a pretty close online equivalent to this meat behind the keyboard.

I post pseudo-anonymously. Except for my email and my first name, most of what I do on this forum isn't (publicly/easily) related to my real name. Mostly, I do that to limit my exposure to random internet crazies. (Not talking about :ff:! Never! :ffshifty:)

On the other hand, people who know my real name can pretty easily link it with specious_reasons, because I do link to the same videos and pictures and it's even in my FB profile.

I keep FB pretty "radical atheist" free, but I will promote science and skepticism, because frankly that's more important and dear to me.

Basically, I'm as boring as shit IRL as I am online. :)
__________________
ta-
DAVE!!!
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Gonzo (07-01-2011)
  #11  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:50 PM
ceptimus's Avatar
ceptimus ceptimus is offline
puzzler
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: XMVDV
Images: 28
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I use 236 different online identities.

I used to have 237, but I found it was too complicated and confusing to maintain them all, so I cut back.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (07-08-2011), ChuckF (07-02-2011), Clutch Munny (07-02-2011), Crumb (07-01-2011), Dragar (02-20-2012), Ensign Steve (07-01-2011), Gonzo (07-01-2011), irukandji (07-01-2011), Kael (07-01-2011), Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), Leesifer (07-01-2011), lisarea (07-01-2011), Pan Narrans (07-11-2011), Qingdai (07-01-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015), Watser? (07-01-2011)
  #12  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:16 AM
viscousmemories's Avatar
viscousmemories viscousmemories is offline
Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: XXMXXL
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 9
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I'm always viscousmemories except when I'm not.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011)
  #13  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:19 AM
SharonDee's Avatar
SharonDee SharonDee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Gender: Female
Posts: VMDLXII
Blog Entries: 2
Images: 54
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I was 12 and my very first handle was Mary Poppins.

__________________
__________________


Os-cah!
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (07-08-2011), BrotherMan (07-01-2011), ceptimus (07-01-2011), Crumb (07-01-2011), Ensign Steve (07-01-2011), Kael (07-01-2011), Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), lisarea (07-01-2011), livius drusus (07-01-2011), Qingdai (07-01-2011), slimshady2357 (07-01-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015), Watser? (07-01-2011)
  #14  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:50 AM
Kael's Avatar
Kael Kael is offline
the internet says I'm right
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Western U.S.
Gender: Male
Posts: VMCCCXXI
Blog Entries: 11
Images: 23
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I use a handful of different usernames and passwords, not really for anonymity or anything, just because of whatever I can think of and remember when I sign up at a new place. I've never really thought about deliberately trying to shed the usual social context that people might filter what I say through if they know stuff about me - probably because I'm a married hetero white male. I do what I can to help when I see shit like that, but damn me if I'm not glad I don't have to deal with it much myself.
__________________
For Science!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-01-2011, 02:00 AM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Is it okay to be grateful for our privilege as long as we recognize it? I have been happy about being a white, middle class, heterosexual on multiple occasions.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-01-2011, 02:05 AM
Kael's Avatar
Kael Kael is offline
the internet says I'm right
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Western U.S.
Gender: Male
Posts: VMCCCXXI
Blog Entries: 11
Images: 23
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I supposed that depends on what you mean by "ok" and "glad."

It's certainly understandable, at least the 'glad I don't have to deal with bad stuff' side of it. Whether there's a moral obligation to work against institutionalized privilege when you're on the happy end, and how much of one; or whether it is immoral to enjoy that privilege, and does that depend on whether or how hard you're working to reduce that privilege, that sounds like a more complicated question.
__________________
For Science!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (07-01-2011)
  #17  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:14 AM
Doctor X Doctor X is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: XMVCCCIII
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I am viscousmemories . . . and you are not.

--J.D.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Gonzo (07-01-2011)
  #18  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:20 AM
Kyuss Apollo's Avatar
Kyuss Apollo Kyuss Apollo is offline
happy now, Mussolini?
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: location, location
Posts: VCLXVI
Blog Entries: 7
Images: 17
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I have a professional gmail and a "friends & spam" gmail and keep the two separate or "compartmentalized." Have to - -my professional address is often sitting open on my desk at work, and I can't have my father-in-law emailing me the latest picset of walmart ho's over the network there. Plus there are times I have literally dozens of emails coming in over that and I can't afford to lose track of them.

I have had a couple of forum names over the years too, but they are largely due to the changes in email addresses over the years--whatever email address I am using tends to be what I pick as a username. As far as online games, I usually pick some random nonsense word if Kyuss is already taken; if it isn't then I have the satisfaction of knowing that all the twats that try after it will get the "username already taken" that I usually get.

Now my wife has an interesting take on the significance of gender on online games. She will deliberately develop a female character and identity and use it to get free stuff from guys trying to impress her, in much the same way that guys buy girls drinks at the bar. I've watched her get awesome sets of free weapons, health potions, gold, whatever is of value in the particular game. She's also one of the best gamers I've ever met, so she generally ends up kicking everyone's ass then getting invited into the most dominant clan, team or whatever the case may be. Though lately she's been playing Angry Birds, and the pigs don't really care that she's a girl.
__________________
This week's track: Soundgarden - Boot Camp



Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Doctor X (08-28-2011), Gonzo (07-01-2011), LadyShea (07-01-2011)
  #19  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:52 AM
Qingdai's Avatar
Qingdai Qingdai is offline
Dogehlaugher -Scrutari
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northwest
Gender: Female
Posts: XVCXIII
Images: 162
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I had different names I used to use at different forums. Now I really only post here. So, I don't know.
I have a facebook account, but I don't link to anyone from work, or old students, or current students or use if for much beyond some free game bullshit and sharing links I think my various acquaintances might like or need (like the free health screening clinic).

I also had a CB handle, but damn if I can remember it, Ms. Dee.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-01-2011, 04:02 AM
lisarea's Avatar
lisarea lisarea is offline
Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: XVCMLXXXI
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 3
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Well, the lady thing really is a pretty big issue, but I've been trying to get away from the gender neutral thing, just because it tends to perpetuate itself, especially in technical forums. You know, dudebros will argue for the presumption of (straight) maleness being OK because hey, we're almost all dudebros here so we're the target audience. So I try to step up when I see it sometimes and say, "Yeah, actually I would not be interested in banging that lady! This is boring!" and more often than I expected, other people will pile on and say, "Hey, yeah, I am also a gay man or a straight lady, and I also think this is stupid" or whatever.

It's also very very common to be accused of having dishonest and selfish motivations, particularly on political topics, as a lady. Like if you're arguing for welfare, they assume you are on welfare. If you say "Hey, you are overstating the severity of the obesity crisis," they assume you are fat. That I don't really care about much. And in technical areas, I've had a few times in real life where men have gotten fucked over really hard by not listening to what I told them, so I figure that when dudes ignore me on the internets for being a lady, I don't care. If they fail their class or get fired or throw away a computer they think is broken because they ignored what I told them: Ha ha. Good!

But it goes beyond that. Demographics aside, I still just like the idea of talking about different things outside of any personal context at all. Just talking about that thing, and having things stand on their own merit. But maybe that's a lady thing, too. Either I am more creeped out by people getting all personal about things all the time and following me around, or maybe people just get more personal and creepy like that with ladies.

Hmmm. Now I have a new hypothesis to test someday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Is it okay to be grateful for our privilege as long as we recognize it? I have been happy about being a white, middle class, heterosexual on multiple occasions.
I would think that's okay, especially when you consider what the alternatives would be. Either not recognizing your privilege at all, or acting like it's not a privilege.

Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Gonzo (07-01-2011), Stormlight (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015)
  #21  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:30 AM
Crumb's Avatar
Crumb Crumb is offline
Cmurb!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cascadia
Gender: Male
Posts: LVMDXXV
Blog Entries: 22
Images: 355
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I totally compartmentalize. I really use to be completely George Costanza in real life. I had separate worlds and did not like them colliding. That has worn off a bit as I growed up, but I still have compartmenting tendencies. Doing things online makes it pretty easy to keep things separated, though it wouldn't take too much work for someone to connect the dots if they wanted to. I hope they don't, because I don't really want anyone to know I associate with you people. :snob:
__________________
:joecool2: :cascadia: :ROR: :portland: :joecool2:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
godfry n. glad (07-02-2011), Gonzo (07-01-2011), Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), LadyShea (07-01-2011), lisarea (07-01-2011), ravenscape (07-02-2011), The Man (03-27-2015)
  #22  
Old 07-01-2011, 07:23 AM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
I would think that's okay, especially when you consider what the alternatives would be. Either not recognizing your privilege at all, or acting like it's not a privilege.
Maybe this is stupid, but I like the sort of invisibility it provides. I can go most anywhere and nobody stares, or smirks, or whispers, or looks sympathetic, or follows me around thinking I am going to rob the place, or acts snotty like I don't belong (except that lady at the Bose store).
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Stormlight (07-01-2011)
  #23  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:12 AM
Stormlight's Avatar
Stormlight Stormlight is offline
Not a relevant party
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Gender: Male
Posts: XLCDL
Images: 92
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

My online personality is completely separate from my offline personality. Nobody offline knows who I am online. :undisguise:

Also, I only post here as it's already pretty crowded and I don't have a place to store all the cookies. :cookietease:
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Gonzo (07-01-2011), livius drusus (07-01-2011), Naru (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015), viscousmemories (07-01-2011), Watser? (07-01-2011)
  #24  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:41 AM
Doctor X Doctor X is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: XMVCCCIII
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

You mean you really live in a big country, like a principality or something?

--J.D.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:19 PM
S.Vashti's Avatar
S.Vashti S.Vashti is offline
nominalistic existential pragmaticist
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cheeeeseland
Gender: Female
Posts: MMMDCCLXX
Images: 105
Default Re: Privacy, Anonymity, and Compartmentalization

I don't do the technical forums stuff too much, and my "forte" would be art, biology and evolution, anyway. And as far as I can recall, my first handle was cporter9 on AOL, and I've kept that in some way ever since. So I don't value anonymity because I don't find it important to me, I will be as rude or as polite as I want to be, whatever name it is, and it usually is my name. Also, I changed my name in high school, so I'm perhaps overly satisfied with it, because it's my personal choice.

I do use a "non-gendered" names for gaming characters, and I'm reluctant to join gaming groups of strangers. So I do know that I'm sometimes reluctant to say I'm female on portions of the internet, but that comes after years of various stalkers which have mystified me and made me slightly more aggressive that I would normally consider myself. Fuck with me and I will stab you, you poltroon miscreant!
__________________
:marsh:
:coffeeff:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kyuss Apollo (07-01-2011), livius drusus (07-01-2011), The Man (03-27-2015)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > Lifestyle


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.26024 seconds with 14 queries