Well I am not necessarily in support of a harassment policy. Maybe if I saw one that was well formulated enough to fit in with the others rules of this forum and not turn it into a "don't be a jerk" type rule. This is my favorite forum. I am greatly in support of the free thinking free speaking style of this place. It is why I have made it my home on the net.
I am glad that others here agree with my concern that some users here (not all new, but quite often seldom posters) are sometimes shown a very hostile response by some posters here. I do not have an easy solution to propose, nor am I sure there is a solution. I think that us being aware that this is a problem is a good thing though. I got such a warm welcome here when I started posting and it has lead to me posting over 6,000 times here! If I had started posting in a more serious thread though, and disagreed with the wrong member I may have not felt that way.
I am not really posting here about Sweetie or Adora, but am trying to look at the bigger picture. The ignore features here were designed to address some of this. It may not help new users, because they are not familiar with it. But repeated and continual harassment seems impossible if the victim merely ignores the harassing user. But some people don't like to ignore.
Sweetie: Why don't you think the ignore feature will work? What about ignoring a user does not address this problem? Have you tried using the ignore feature to solve the problems you have had here?
I agree that there's no need for anyone to jump on Sweetie and I haven't said that I thought this is a non-issue. What I said is that there is nothing in her OP that resembles a suggestion for a rule or policy change. All I see is a definition of harassment, followed by Sweetie saying "I think what I am complaining about fits all of these definitions." In other words, this appears to be yet another thread wherein Sweetie intends to complain that Adora has harassed her. What does that have to do with Forum Administration?
I agree on all these points.
Perhaps the opening post of this thread doesn't quite hit the mark for expressing a Forum Administration issue, but I think as a group we might be able to hear her out and help Sweetie focus her concerns to the general case.
As some have suggested in this thread, I think Sweetie's OP puts her own behavior to scrutiny. I can arguably use her own definition to view her own actions as 'forum harrassment'. It's easy to slip into the pattern of rehashing specific examples (i.e., talking about other users and past situations).
However, the general issue of hostile environment remains. I am willing to try for a discussion on this concern as it relates to this online discussion forum.
Sweetie, in general terms, what do you think a forum's rules or administration policies can do to help with this problem? What do you think a forum's community can do? And the individual? I think those are the different entities that can take action. What actions do you propose each can (should?) do.
Some have been suggested:
Individuals: ignore, count to 10, act like an adult -- all of which are successful options, in my opinion. Perhaps I would add: read with generosity and post with kindness.
Beyond that, what can the community do, Sweetie?
What can the forum administrators do?
I don't think harassment is a useful model, however, because as the definition in the OP notes, it requires consistent, intentional abuse directed towards a person over a period of time. That's not a standard that can apply to new members getting grilled their first time out of the Welcome forum, it seems to me. Nor does it address the general issue of hair-trigger threads which range far and wide in topic and membership.
I agree, harassment in this situation isn't useful. Sweetie accuses Adora of harassing her, yet Adora does the same to everyone given the chance. To me it does not seem that Sweetie is the only target, just that Sweetie is one of the few to be stupid enough to give Adora more fun/ammunition.
In another thread somewhere Adora has even said herself that if Sweetie did but ignore her, then she would get bored and leave her alone.
Surely harassment could only be considered if it was directed at only one single person.
Having said that, is it now, not Adora who harassing Sweetie but Sweetie harassing Adora, simply by constantly posting such threads and at every opportunity bringing this up, even though there are many routes she could take to ignore Adora?
I would like to report scarletpeaches for hairy-assing all of us. I think she should face total bannination and then be fired out of a circus cannon without a net.
Wow. There are so many derails it's insane. That must be my fault, I'm quite sure.
One day I would like it to be acknowledged that I tend to hold up fairly well under fire, like, there's at least ten people to my one maybe so if I don't get to you, it's for no other reason then right now I don't have time, and I just condensed a few poster's issues into one or two.
Generally, after a reading of this thread:
1) Questions about PMs and morality belong elsewhere. I would argue that I made a leading statement to get to an exact truth verified by the person I was speaking of.
2) Frequent drug use among members here. Another thread. I will dig up evidence to that effect from my experience in the last year and a half at FF, if you wish. I didn't just make that up out of thin air as I don't tend to make stuff up that I have no foundation for however, outside of that one statement, the rest was couched in hypothetical terms. What if she was drinking, have you taken advantage of her then? I don't like people being called rapists, sorry, especially someone I'm fond of. I remember TomJoe once expressing jealousy over missing out on some sort of girl on girl action, so perhaps he was just jealous? I don't know, I just thought it was hypocritical.
3) Accusations: me and D. Scarlatti. He can start a thread if he wishes. For fuck's sakes, he was banned countless times for harassing, belittling and generally unproductive comments at CF. Is he welcome at HH? Why not?
4) xyza's assertion and observation that Adora attacks mulitple people.
BINGO! That was the reason for the banning of latinijral, the constant attacking nature and disruption of the boards of his comments. I happen to think his harassing Beth specifically prompted action more than anything, but that's just IMHO.
In the end, only 9 people had latinijral on ignore, and twenty-two refused to ignore him. Why didn't they just use the ignore feature? I could probably drum up proof that at least that many have had Adora on ignore, and maybe some have ignored me, but I am complainging about consistent and attacking abuse which is what those two posters would be ignored for.
Her following definition, however, does not suit.
5) I can have a disagreement, and I can disagree with others, that does not make what I do harassing in the nature of that which I am claiming so hypocrasy does not apply.
I am complaining about unprovoked attacks, and attacks in general, chronic abusive attacks not just alot of talking and alot of disagreeing.
6) ummm, ummm.......other thoughts for now.........I think that covers the basics. Since I'm not here for fluffy threads these days, hehe, any of you who want to take up the serious side threads, I'll have a go.
7) oh yeah, once again, I do not agree that I have to sit and patiently ignore abuse and I've heard alot of other people agree with me on that even if they don't agree in my situation.
7) oh yeah, once again, I do not agree that I have to sit and patiently ignore abuse and I've heard alot of other people agree with me on that even if they don't agree in my situation.
There is a psychological element in the process of ignore/reward bad or good behavior that I think is really not noted.
If we take a child as an example, and the child steals, and you know she steals, she steals from you, she steals from Grandma but today she decides not to steal. You ignore the fact that she steals and you punish her not at all, and you reward her with positive comments and thoughts when she doesn't steal, ultimately you've created a monster. A monster who steals, who gets away with stealing and yet who behaves only when it suits her, when she can use it to get what she wants, after she has already "taken" other things that she wants that are not hers to take and she uses you as well. (I could use lying as an example as well, it probably would work better but I've already written this)
Let's consider then that not only have you created her, you've applauded her behavior, and rewarded it. You not only condone it, you give her the means to continue it, and you are actually complicit which is why in some cases, the law will make the parents pay. Just a thought. We aren't her parents, but there are enough similarities that apply to both cases. So I can be equally as upset with the parents as I can with the child, they are both at fault which is one of the reasons why it's so difficult for me to ignore this. She's not doing it alone, even if they aren't doing the same things as her, even if you believe you have washed your hands clean of your part in her causes and effects.
Sweetie I'm not sure I have ever seen you answer these questions (maybe I missed it):
Do you have Adora on ignore?
Have you ever had Adora on ignore? If yes, why didn't it work? If no, why haven't you tried?
Thing is, Adora will argue without abuse, she'll just disagree, to annoying levels but she'll disagree. It is only when she is confronted she breaks down into name calling and other playground antics. That has been what I have read when she is posting. When people continue to argue with her she carries on, once someone stops (and that does not mean they have conceded, she's just boring) she stops.
Have you considered that maybe you don't stop like other people do ???
I know my definition of harassment does not suit, as you would like it too, but that is how things are, nothing that Adora does to you or anyone else in the open would be considered harassment in court. At best all this is just playground bullying, only there is no violence involved, no threats just words on a screen.
Believe me, I know how emotionally it can get to you, how angry and upset you can end up feeling. You really need to let go though, this is something you can walk away from, yet you keep putting yourself through it. If Adora goes they'll be someone else and it will repeat over and over again.
Thing is, Adora will argue without abuse, she'll just disagree, to annoying levels but she'll disagree. It is only when she is confronted she breaks down into name calling and other playground antics. That has been what I have read when she is posting.
No, I disagree. I think at least one of the examples I brought up highlighted this exactingly. She will abuse as she wills. It's not about us, it's about her and it's not even rational as in, she will attack when attacked. She will attack when she feels like it and when she doesn't.
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When people continue to argue with her she carries on, once someone stops (and that does not mean they have conceded, she's just boring) she stops.
Nope. Alex Bragi had only a couple interactions with her and she's been gone for months. Adora brought it up two weeks ago.
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Have you considered that maybe you don't stop like other people do ???
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I know my definition of harassment does not suit, as you would like it too, but that is how things are, nothing that Adora does to you or anyone else in the open would be considered harassment in court.
I never said it would extend that far. The thing is, this is more like workplace interaction than it is just general public. When we don't like someone, we stay away but at work, we have to go back. The difference is, we could work somewhere else, but we want to work there and won't so easily be chased away, there is something there for us like here.
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At best all this is just playground bullying, only there is no violence involved, no threats just words on a screen.
That's the problem. Firstly, I don't hold to bullying at all, and I think if this were real life, there would be violence as I indicated to Alex Bragi in that thread.
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If Adora goes they'll be someone else and it will repeat over and over again.
None of us deserve, it doesn' tneed to happen, it's wrong. That's my arguement. You feel fatalistic about it, I don't. I think most of you who have issues with it just left or feel like there's no point. I think I have a valid point.
Emotional abuse is just as bad or worse, than physical abuse IMHO. She has no right to do either.
Sweetie I'm not sure I have ever seen you answer these questions (maybe I missed it):
Do you have Adora on ignore?
Have you ever had Adora on ignore? If yes, why didn't it work? If no, why haven't you tried?
Yes, I have answered this question. I have not physically put her on "Ignore" but I have ignored her for a certain period of time.
I don't think I have to ignore abuse, I don't think I deserve to be abused or harassed. Harassment is like a weapon, methinks.
Other than that, can people who are considering whether to join or not put her on "Ignore"? What effect do you think that has to this population?
Otherwise, any other thoughts I'll deal with later, I must work.
Emotional abuse is just as bad or worse, than physical abuse IMHO. She has no right to do either.
Okay in the REAL world I 100% agree with you. This however is not the real world and I won't even go into your work place analogue.
In the real world you don't have an off switch or an ignore button ... It's the very same button I'm about to press on here
BINGO! That was the reason for the banning of latinijral, the constant attacking nature and disruption of the boards of his comments.
No, that's not correct. It was primarily the fact that after a point his posts were almost exclusively personal attacks without any substance or relevance to the threads he was posting on.
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I happen to think his harassing Beth specifically prompted action more than anything, but that's just IMHO.
You are wrong. On the contrary, Beth is one of few people here who made a genuine effort to engage latinijral (both publicly and privately) and who didn't feel that he necessarily needed to be banned. If your theory was correct, then by all means you would have been banned for harassing Beth as well. Remember her Psychotherapy thread, where you said:
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Originally Posted by Sweetie
Lol, I had wanted to tell you that you were insignificant to me before but I thought that would be cruel and you are such a large fucking target but anyhoo, I will still respond to the stupid shit you are consistently putting out there, sorry if you don't like it but we're here together, you're stuck with me, put me on ignore bitch, it don't bother me none, you and your childish fucking psychotic ways.
Given your comment there it seems more than a little ironic that you are now incessantly complaining about Adora harassing you and insisting that the ignore features we provide are inadequate.
As far as I can tell there is nothing in this thread that warrants an official response from us. I'll leave it in this forum because it appears to be a complaint about our policies.
Yes, I have answered this question. I have not physically put her on "Ignore" but I have ignored her for a certain period of time.
Might I suggest actually putting her on ignore (the feature) as I get the feeling your ability to mentally ignore here isn't as good as the feature.
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Originally Posted by Sweetie
I don't think I have to ignore abuse, I don't think I deserve to be abused or harassed. Harassment is like a weapon, methinks.
I don't think you deserve to be harassed either, but you can do some things about it, but haven't bothered too. How would it be abuse if you can't see it? If Adora verbally swears at you when reading a post, do you hear it? are you abused by it?
It would seem that you are enabling some of the abuse.
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Originally Posted by Sweetie
Other than that, can people who are considering whether to join or not put her on "Ignore"? What effect do you think that has to this population?
People who are considering whether to join or not might be smart enough to read how the forum works and know that they can ignore her once they join.
Re: What Is Harassment?
I am greatly in support of the free thinking free speaking style of this place. It is why I have made it my home on the net.
"poo"
I just thought it was hypocritical.
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