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  #51  
Old 09-13-2007, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Vehement? Brother you ain't ever seen me being vehement.

The degree of ambiguity relative to any event is always going to be a matter of perception. Perception is colored by bias. Any act on the part of Bush is going to be interpreted in terms of the opinion one has already formed about Bush. The more strongly the opinion is held the less likely are nuances going to be taken into account. Both a biased opinion and a prejudicial opinion will significantly effect how one interprets a particular event. The distinction lies not in the effect that bias and prejudice have on perception, but the foundation upon which each is based. Bias is founded upon some sort of evidence. The better the evidence, the more accurate the bias. Prejudice requires no evidence. The only prerequisite for prejudice is a pre-disposition to believe something.

Again, this is all based on my understanding of the distinction between bias and prejudice. I am sure that there are other definitions, probably equally valid. As long as we are using different definitions (and it appears that we are) we will continue to post at cross purposes. All of which just reenforces my earlier observation that we need we need to reach some agreement on the distinction between bias and prejudice. A task that has yet to be accomplished.
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  #52  
Old 09-15-2007, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

As long as we are using different definitions (and it appears that we are) we will continue to post at cross purposes. Just to be clear, I have agreed to use your definition for this discussion, and I don't think we are at cross-purposes.

Bias is founded upon some sort of evidence. The better the evidence, the more accurate the bias. Prejudice requires no evidence. The only prerequisite for prejudice is a pre-disposition to believe something.

I think you have changed you definition significantly here, and the new version isn't going to work as well as the old one. Most (if not all) prejudices are the result of some real experience which can be counted evidence. The original distinction you drew between bias and prejudice was not on presence and absence of evidence. It was on sufficient and insufficient evidence;
one acts prejudicially […] where that judgement is insufficiently supported by evidence.
That's important because the dispute between us is about whether the "Bush was an asshole to the girl" judgement is sufficiently supported by the evidence that supports the "Bush is an asshole" judgement. I say it isn't, and I say it vehemently.

Your argument, if I understand it, is that once one can claim that one's bias is justified by 'the evidence', then every conclusion about gaps in some other evidence that one is therefore inclined by that bias to leap to is also justified and therefore not 'prejudice'. Such an argument would support all sorts of injustice. For instance, it would support a policy of declining applications from black candidates for an intellectually demanding post purely on the basis of statistics on the underachievement of black children in education.

Mick
Vehement? Brother you ain't ever seen me being vehement. I think I just did, but I'm quite willing to believe it wasn't the limit of your vehemence!
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  #53  
Old 09-15-2007, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
I think you have changed you definition significantly here, and the new version isn't going to work as well as the old one.
You are right and that was sloppy of me (though I think I ought to be cut a little slack on this, given that I am just making this shit up as I go). Still, my point remains that while one's bias may lead one to make a mistake in judgement, that mistaken judgement is not therefore necessarily an example of prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Mick
Your argument, if I understand it, is that once one can claim that one's bias is justified by 'the evidence', then every conclusion about gaps in some other evidence that one is therefore inclined by that bias to leap to is also justified and therefore not 'prejudice'.
Not precisely. A conclusion can be justified, in the sense that it is based on a justified bias, and still be a faulty conclusion, particularly if it fails to take into account new evidence that challenges the justification for the original bias. That such a conclusion is faulty does not automatically make it a case of prejudice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
Such an argument would support all sorts of injustice. For instance, it would support a policy of declining applications from black candidates for an intellectually demanding post purely on the basis of statistics on the underachievement of black children in education.
Your example assumes that the statistics in question constitute sufficient grounds for establishing a bias against hiring blacks. Taken out of context, and in the absence of any countervailing evidence, those statistics may indeed constitute sufficient evidence to justify the bias. Unfortunately (for those looking for easy answers to hard questions) those statistics do not stand in isolation from other facts. Facts which serve to defeat the bias. Thus, if a bias is based, from the start, on insufficient evidence it is not a justified bias. Rather, it is an example of prejudice.

If we apply this reasoning to the case in question (i.e. Bush's alleged assholishness) two questions need to be addressed. 1) Is there sufficient evidence, prior to this particular incident, to justify a bias in favor of Bush being an asshole? 2) Do the particulars of this incident provide evidence that is of sufficient force to challenge the existing bias? As I see it, the incident is just ambiguous enough that it can be used to both support and challenge the existing bias. In other words, it is a wash and thus lacks probitive value.
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  #54  
Old 09-20-2007, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

You can have a much slack rope as you need, Angakuk, but I'm puzzled about your rejection of my attempt to lay out your argument. You say "Not precisely" but I don't understand why you introduce "faulty yet justified" judgements into the picture, nor why this leads you to disagree with my summary.
  • a faulty conclusion which is not prejudiced because it is based on a justifed bias, and
  • a conclusion about gaps in some evidence which is not prejudiced because one leaps to it through a justified bias
look exactly alike to me. Can you explain a bit more about how the first is what you're arguing and the second isn't?

Mick
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  #55  
Old 09-20-2007, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

I wrote "not precisely" because your restatement of my argument (i.e. "Your argument, if I understand it, is that once one can claim that one's bias is justified by 'the evidence', then every conclusion about gaps in some other evidence that one is therefore inclined by that bias to leap to is also justified and therefore not 'prejudice'.") was, to put it simply, confusing. So, I restated my argument in a form that made more sense to me. I introduced the concept of "faulty conclusions" in order to avoid any suggestion that "justified" necessarily implies correctness.

Let me give it another try.

Conclusions, opinions, or judgements that are based on a justified bias share in the justification for that bias. While they may be faulty, they are not unjustified. That is, one is justified in holding them, even if they happen to be false.

Conclusions, opinions, or judgements that are not based on a justified bias are, by definition, expressions of prejudice. That is, one is not justified in holding them, even if they happen to be true.

What, someone may ask, about unbiased conclusions, opinions or judgements that are based solely on the evidence? I would answer, there ain't no such critter.
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  #56  
Old 09-26-2007, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Conclusions, opinions, or judgements that are based on a justified bias share in the justification for that bias. While they may be faulty, they are not unjustified. That is, one is justified in holding them, even if they happen to be false.

I don't think that reliability and justification can be separated so completely as that. If a bias is justified, that is because the evidence supports the assumptions it makes. If an assumption turns out to be false, then it doesn't make sense to say that the bias was justified and the assumption was false. I think in such circumstances I would have to admit that it was an error to suppose that that assumption was truly justified by the bias.

I might still be able to say that my bias was justified. The mistake is stretching the jusitifcation to cover all other judgements that my bias leads me to make. The justification weakens the further it is stretched. Once it gets so stretched that its assumptions obscure a different story, then it has become simple prejudice.

That is what I think has happened here.

Mick
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  #57  
Old 10-08-2007, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Hello erimir!

do you have any interests that aren't related to Bush having a verbal exchange with a teenage girl where the girl started crying?

I think there are few more important or valuable things to discuss in a forum like this than media distortions, how they work and how to combat them. Agreed?

And yes, of course I have other interests. What a silly question!

Mick
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  #58  
Old 10-24-2007, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Hello again, Angakuk

In other words, [the crying girl incident] is a wash and thus lacks probitive value.
If it lacks probitive value then we agree it cannot show us Bush's 'inner asshole'. I think that leaves all those who accepted Watser's OP at face value looking rather prejudiced. Yes?

Mick
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  #59  
Old 10-24-2007, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Are you bored or something, mick? A month later and you reply? :rolleyes:
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  #60  
Old 10-24-2007, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

I don't understand why the date is important? Is my observation or my question less valid now than it would have been last week, or than it will be next week?

Mick
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  #61  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
I don't understand why the date is important? Is my observation or my question less valid now than it would have been last week, or than it will be next week?

Mick
No, it c...wait...


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  #62  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Well, at least you didn't start a whole new thread about it!

Wait!
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  #63  
Old 10-25-2007, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Wait!
While you think of a more constructive contribution to make? LOL!

How long will it take? A month? A year?
:popcorn:
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  #64  
Old 10-25-2007, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

I have read most of the thread. While I am not familkiar with the Bush incident in question, I am familiar with postmodernism (being as I was an English lit major with a History minor). It is a very damaging thing when applied to the study of history, as the underlying denial of history and the idea of knowing what happened just being impossible is a dead end. I won't even go into why it is detrimental to the literary world (beyond saying that the underlying premise that we have no real way of ever communicating completely is annoying and leads to a lot of Very Bad Literature).

In all, I do think that the OP description of PostModernism is pretty accurate. It's not about equality, it's about the disintegration of communication and the denial of facts qua facts.

That said, many things are open to interpretation. I will definitely view Bush's actions (any of them) from a very different standpoint than, say, Wolfowitz. Does this, though, mean I will be incapable of a proper analysis of his actions? Depends. When it comes to policy, I think I am actually pretty able to suss stuff out. Personal stuff about him? Not likely, as I just plain think he's a dick and will likely never change my mind on that.
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  #65  
Old 10-25-2007, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
I don't understand why the date is important? Is my observation or my question less valid now than it would have been last week, or than it will be next week?

Mick
. . . It's just that that staircase was replaced with an elevator two weeks ago.
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  #66  
Old 10-25-2007, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

LOL! Bop struggles to keep a grasp on unfolding events...

Yes dear, staircase, that's right! Mmm, elevator? How lovely! Here's your slippers and cocoa, dear! Two weeks, Fancy! ... don't let it get cold now ... :grandpa:
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  #67  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
LOL! Bop struggles to keep a grasp on unfolding events...

Yes dear, staircase, that's right! Mmm, elevator? How lovely! Here's your slippers and cocoa, dear! Two weeks, Fancy! ... don't let it get cold now ... :grandpa:
I don't think that I'm the one failing to keep up, here.
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  #68  
Old 10-25-2007, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Really, ShottleBop? You've started posting random gibberish deliberately? To prove your manhood? To show you can't be brow-beaten into talking sense? To assert your right to join Sock and Uthgar in mindless hooliganism? Do tell!
:popcorn:
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

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Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Really, ShottleBop? You've started posting random gibberish deliberately? To prove your manhood? To show you can't be brow-beaten into talking sense? To assert your right to join Sock and Uthgar in mindless hooliganism? Do tell!
:popcorn:
Someone had remarked on the fact that you had taken a month to reply to a post of Angakuk's. You responded that it shouldn't matter how long it took for you to reply. I noted that, between Angakuk's post and your reply, the staircase had been replaced with an elevator. Think "esprit d'escalier".
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  #70  
Old 10-26-2007, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

I noted that, between Angakuk's post and your reply, the staircase had been replaced with an elevator.
LOL! And it was well worth the effort, Bop! I'm sure all the francophones here are roaring their ribs out. The parallel between internet message boards and parisian staircases - certainment génie!
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  #71  
Old 10-26-2007, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

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  #72  
Old 11-17-2007, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Hello Caligulette

Thanks for joining in with a more sympathetic attitude than many here. Have you read Watser's link? If you have then you know as much as anyone except those who were actually there. So don't be shy, you are only two minutes away from having an expert opinion to offer us.

I do think that the OP description of PostModernism is pretty accurate.
Thanks! This puts you at odds, I think, with the views of many of our fellow :ff:ers like davidm's "This is retarded", and Adora's "no fucking clue what they're talking about.". :shocked: (But then again, it's when the likes of davidm and Adora agree with me that I worry I must be horribly mistaken. :wink:)

I just plain think he's a dick and will likely never change my mind on that.
Strangely, lots of people have tried to turn this into an argument about whether Bush is a hero or a villain. It isn't, and I don't believe you should change your opinion of the PUS.

Mick
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  #73  
Old 11-18-2007, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Post deleted by author. I made an oopsie.
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  #74  
Old 11-18-2007, 06:37 AM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

You sure did, Ang. This thread wasn't scheduled to be bumped for at least another four weeks of no one caring.
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  #75  
Old 11-18-2007, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: The care and feeding of prejudice

Another useless bump by mick, and I'm starting to post random scat porn in this thread.
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