$6 Million McStripSearch

[D. Scarlatti]

you the bleeding heart hero?

[ZEZOZE]

so nobody sat there thinking- what are you doing girl? run! call the cops!! say no!! don't you think it would be better to encourage that kind of thinking instead of rewarding a person for standing still. perhaps she deserves that money for being young and already fucked over in the head by the likes of some of you, but when is this victim mentality bullshit gonna stop?

i have never said i thought what was done to that girl was right. i am happy that guy is going to jail. the guy doing the phoning is a sick fuck...so what? shouldn't we find ways to change or prevent this sort of thing from happening, instead of just placating the 'victim' when it does? is that just easier?

[ZEZOZE]

Originally Posted by Gypsy Davey

you the bleeding heart hero?

huh?

[Kyuss Apollo]

Originally Posted by InTheServiceOfZeke

and it begins...no.

(i won't be adding any more to this site either)

Why remain silent and be thought a fool when you can run your mouth and remove all doubt?

[ZEZOZE]

instead of the insults, why not address what i have to say?

did you ever stop to consider that what i am saying is actually in defense of that girl, or at least those who might follow in her footsteps?

[But]

[Kyuss Apollo]

Why bother? We have tried that and it is a waste of both time and energy.

What you say is generally both thoughtless and obnoxious; this thread is just example # 820. Have a nice day.

[ZEZOZE]

who is 'we'?

so i am a waste of time and energy?

[livius drusus]

First of all, PW did not misquote you. She quoted you exactly. As someone who regularly takes out single sentences and clauses from multiple paragraph posts to reply to, you of all people should know that.

Secondly, showing empathy for a girl who was sexually assaulted is not embracing a "victim mentality". It's human. It's also perfectly possible to express empathy for the girl and at the same time advocate for skepticism of authority. Several people in this thread have already done so.

Do you think calling her a retard and a mindless sheep is going to inspire her to question authority? If she were in front of you right now, would you insult her like that?

[ZEZOZE]

no i wouldn't...but she's not here. what's your point?

if i were in front of any of you right now, would you insult me like that? phffft...probably.

she took me out of context in a big way...you can't deny that. she made it seem like i thought what he did was ok...

funny how you will defend pw, but not me from the bullshit insults and piling on?

[Plant Woman]

Hello Michael? the phone was in use by her abusers. She thought it was the police on the phone. Again, this girl did not have enough "street smarts" or life experience to know how to get herself out. Not her fault. Would some training to help girls (children for that matter) learn how to get out of situations or recognize what is actually happening like this be helpful? Perhaps. But you know most perps of crimes seek out those they think they can victimize. Alone, vulnerable whatever it is. They prey on old people, children, people who are naive. It doesn't mean its the victim's fault. I definitely would not be glad to see any perpetrator acquitted, whether its "in a way", part way or any way, just because the victim didn't find a way out of his or her situation.

I am glad we live in a society that helps victims. I am glad that society let the girl know that she wasn't at fault for what happened to her, that most of us can have empathy for her and hopes she gets over her PTSD and that she move on with her life.

And Michael I am addressing what you have to say. I did not misquote you, I cut and pasted exactly what you said. I hope you or any of your family are never victimized, especially your adorable son. But if it happens I certainly wouldn't blame it on you, I would put the blame squarely on the perp, where it belongs.

[ZEZOZE]

i think her ptsd would more than likely stem from having this put out all over the news and internet for people to talk about, more than what happened at the restaurant...maybe they contributed equally.

i still think we lose sight of things because we just want to always help the victim, so much so that we can't wait to find another one...

each person in this thread contributed to her ptsd...how does that make you feel? do you agree?

[livius drusus]

My point is simple: you allege that people expressing empathy for the girl only weakens her, that such expressions are part of the problem because they sustain a "victim mentality".

Your calling this girl a retard and a mindless sheep, on the other hand, is encouraging people to stop accepting authority uncritically. Why not say so to her face, then, if it's really some sort of "tough love" give-the-girl-some-backbone approach? Or is this solution only effective when the insults are relayed behind someone's back?

Again, PW quoted you directly in a way that you do all the time. See your one-liner posts to maddog's detailed, substantive posts, for example.

[ZEZOZE]

ok...fine...i would say it to her face, but i probably wouldn't use the word retard. calling her a retard here isn't much different than sharing her video taped shame, as a topic to discuss to make yourselves feel better about not being her. want to point fingers?

i am not saying people showing empathy toward her weakens her...people telling her it had nothing to do with her actions and that she was powerless to stop it, etc...that weakens us all. she did not start it and she is not to blame for being put in that situation, but she should have been more intelligent about what to do when she was, not just some mindless victim who gets rewarded for just doing what she was told.

she didn't know better...well, fuck- i wonder why?

[livius drusus]

I wouldn't have released the video either, but how do you know that's her choice? It's evidence in a crime, so the police might have released it. Perhaps it was leaked or once it went to a civil case it became public. I'm not sure how that sort of thing works.

Who said she was powerless to stop it? As for what she should have done, walk a mile in her shoes and all that. You've said over and over again that you're allergic to authority. By default you strain against it, no matter who is wrong or right. I myself would have called a civil rights attorney the second I hung up on said "cop". Not everybody is like that, and that doesn't make them mindless.

In fact, an argument could be made that your knee-jerk rejection of all authority is far more automatic -- mindless, if you will -- than her begging under extreme stress to be set free. I bet it took a lot more strength for her to do what she did than it would take for you to tell a cop to bugger off. You do that shit every day, eleven times a day, twice before breakfast.

She did what she thought she could do: petition the authority to stop torturing her. I don't see how her winning the civil case is rewarding her for doing what she was told. It's a legal determination that McDonald's did not fulfill its (rather meager) obligations to its employees.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by 11:11

so nobody sat there thinking- what are you doing girl? run! call the cops!! say no!! don't you think it would be better to encourage that kind of thinking instead of rewarding a person for standing still.

Actually, I largely agree with this. I did sit there thinking "what are you doing girl? run! call the cops!! say no!!". In Miss Ogborn's defense, she did say that she asked to be taken to the police station rather than be strip-searched at the McDonald's. Apparently she did not insist quite strenuously enough. Why? We don't know. Fear of being fired if she didn't cooperate (apparently her family needed her earnings)? Excessive respect for authority (also given as a reason in the article)? Probably a combination of these and other factors. In any case, however much at fault victims may be for failing to resist their victimization, that they may have failed in their responsibility to themselves does nothing to mitigate the guilt of the victimizer.

Civil liability is a matter of determining degrees of relative responsibility. The court found that McDonald's had failed in its responsibility, as an employer, to provide a safe working environment and awarded damages accordingly. The other parties, who were convicted of criminal offenses, were also held responsible for their actions. Is there any way that the court could have held Ogborn responsible for her failure to resist, short of not holding those others responsible for their actions?

Where I part company with 11:11 is when he makes the argument that verdicts like this simply encourage victims to be victims. The reality is that the victim is already paying, and will continue to pay, a price for her failure to protect herself. And the price she is paying is way out of proportion to the nature of her offense. That, in itself, ought to be sufficient incentive for others to avoid allowing themselves to be vicitimized in a similar manner.

The real travesty is that the instigator of these events (whether it was the guy they arrested and charged, or someone else) has not yet been held responsible for his actions. Hopefully this is not the end of the story. Since this was not an isolated incident the possibility remains that justice will be done in his case as well.

[ZEZOZE]

i have a problem with victims being 'awarded' or 'winning' things...compensated, perhaps...

why didn't you address me by name, Ang?

based on the thanks, i'd say i am in the minority here, but please don't lie and accuse me of not having empathy for people. a person can feel bad for somebody that does something which ends up getting them hurt. there is no need to paint me out to be some cold person with no feelings because you would be wrong.

[livius drusus]

I don't know if you're referring to Ang's post or mine. If you're talking to me, I never said you don't have empathy for people. I wouldn't presume to know what is in your heart. Please quote me accusing you of not having empathy for people or retract your claim that I lied in so doing.

Also, please stop thanking me if you don't mean it. I am not calling you names. I am engaging your posts directly and honestly, in far milder terms than you customarily use. If you feel I am being cruel to you -- which sadly seems to be the primary reason you thank people, as a "fuck you very much" -- then perhaps you should turn your strong language about the "victim mentality" onto yourself.

[D. Scarlatti]

Punitive damages are not compensatory. Compensatory damages are.

[D. Scarlatti]

there is no need to paint me out to be some cold person with no feelings

Thank you for this outstanding example of comic irony, incidentally, in the midst of this discourse on the perils of victimihood.

[ZEZOZE]

no, liv, you didn't outright say that...true.

did i call myself a victim? i asked a question...it isn't surprising that people see me as one, though.

i am no victim.

and you aren't addressing me directly, liv, but doing it in defense of what PW said...

[ZEZOZE]

Originally Posted by Gypsy Davey

Punitive damages are not compensatory. Compensatory damages are.

so then she won?

[livius drusus]

I am directly addressing several points you've raised. One of them was your falsehood about PW, and we've moved on from that now that you've admitted she did not in fact misquote you.

Again, please retract your claim that I said you did not have empathy for people. The only thing I said about empathy was that expressing it is not encouraging a "victim mentality" and that it's possible to express empathy and advocate in favor of skepticism of authority at the same time. I neither said nor implied that you lack it.

I appreciate your not thanking me when you don't mean it on my most recent post. Please feel free to withdraw your false thanks on my previous posts.

[D. Scarlatti]

You said you have a problem with victims getting compensated. Yet 80% of the damages awarded were punitive damages, which are not, by definition, compensation. So if we make her return the $1.1m but let her keep the $5m, will you STFU?

[ZEZOZE]

tell you what...i'll do that when you equally defend people from shitty actions, regardless of what they say.

i did say that you didn't say that...but i do believe you implied, and i won't believe you otherwise.

and i already stated that i was taken out of context.