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Old 04-10-2007, 04:39 PM
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Default Where's the outrage?

So Sharpton and Jackson are getting on Imus' case about his "ho" comment (though Sharpton seems to be more upset by the "nappy headed" comment). But, have they been going after hip-hop and rap artists for their constant use of the n-word and ho comments?

It seems that this would be a perfect time to actually address the entire issue, but I've only seen one person* (on a talk panel on Paula Zahn's show) attempt to do so. Why?

*He essentially said that Imus got the phrase "ho" from hip-hop and rap which is the bottom-line culprit in this entire issue, and I agree with him. Imus is an idiot, make no mistake about it, and he may be doing these apologies to simply save his job, but he's simply the tip of the iceberg IMO.
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

"Why the outrage?" is my question. Imus's sidekick, Bernard McGuirk, is way worse than Imus when it comes to making allegedly "racial" remarks, but I don't see him getting pilloried.

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Old 04-10-2007, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

There's a new book just released called "The N-word, who can use it, and when?" which addresses just that topic.

I thought the guy said 'nappy-headed', though I have absolutely no idea what it references, so I figured I had just misheard.

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Old 04-10-2007, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by California Tanker View Post
There's a new book just released called "The N-word, who can use it, and when?" which addresses just that topic.

I thought the guy said 'nappy-headed', though I have absolutely no idea what it references, so I figured I had just misheard.

NTM
I believe the phrase "nappy-headed ho's" was used by Imus. If I caused any confusion by my referring to the "n-word", I didn't mean nappy there, though that too can be used as a racially insensitive comment. Nappy (at least in the US) refers to curly hair. It's often used as a pejorative (having curly hair I've had it used against me, especially when I was in grade school).
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti View Post
"Why the outrage?" is my question. Imus's sidekick, Bernard McGuirk, is way worse than Imus when it comes to making allegedly "racial" remarks, but I don't see him getting pilloried.
Is McGuirk the guy on Imus' show who has gotten shit-canned twice because of seriously off-color comments in the past?
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

I think the guy who got fired was Sid Rosenberg. Apparently McGuirk referred to the Rutgers team as "jigaboos" on the broadcast in question.

I don't really know all that much about Imus and his crew, but I've watched them occasionally since MSNBC started showing them. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing worthwhile about it is the fact that high profile politicians and journalists call him every morning, and those conversations are sometimes pretty entertaining. But now I expect Imus is becoming radioactive to any of them (except John McCain, who said he'll continue phoning in).

Anderson Cooper had Glenn Beck on last night defending Imus. I actually found myself agreeing with the little shit. At least he's something of a free speech absolutist, and opined that Imus's firing would have a chilling effect on future speech, which I think is true.
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJoe View Post
So Sharpton and Jackson are getting on Imus' case about his "ho" comment (though Sharpton seems to be more upset by the "nappy headed" comment). But, have they been going after hip-hop and rap artists for their constant use of the n-word and ho comments?
I know Sharpton has complained about gangster rap and the use of the N word in various media lots of times. He's been pretty actively complaining about those elements of some rap music for a long time. He also publicly criticized Aaron McGruder for using it in Boondocks.

So as far as Sharpton goes: Yes.

I'm not as sure about Jesse Jackson, but I would be surprised if he hasn't also. I tried searching on relevant terms to try to find anything about his position on those things, but there were too many white power looking sites showing up in early results, so I lost my stomach for it.

In both cases of n-words, it's not the words themselves that are offensive, but the context. This seems obvious, but sometimes people act all disingenuous about it. There's a huge difference between some radio asshole saying something about 'nappy headed hoes,' and a black woman talking about her nappy hair.

There's a utility to the term nappy, too. It's not just hair that's curly. It describes hair that has a flat hair shaft, as is common among people of African descent. This can be a very important distinction, especially when it comes to things like dress and grooming codes in the workplace and things like that. Unfortunately, it also has very pejorative connotations sometimes. It really does depend on the context.
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

Well, if Sharpton is consistent in speaking out against the degrading comments towards women in gangster rap and hip-hop, then I suppose he's actually useful after all. I'm willing to change my opinion of him somewhat given this information.

Perhaps you'll consider me "disingenuous" but I fail to see how the "n-word" is context dependent. Unless by "n-word" you mean "nappy", in which case I see your point (though I thought I made it clear that when I used the phrase "n-word" I wasn't talking about the word "nappy"). If you don't mean "nappy" then I guess I'm going to have to disagree. I can't see any contextually agreeable circumstance to call a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter) a "cracker" for instance.
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by TomJoe
I can't see any contextually agreeable circumstance to call a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter) a "cracker" for instance.
Even if you worked at Nabisco or Sunshine or (God forbid) Keebler? I mean what if the guy on the line right next to you was a damn Saltine, always walking around dressed up in Cheeze-Whiz and smoked oysters? Would you call him a cracker then? Huh, would you? Damn right you would, and you would be right.
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

Well, ok. I guess I can see one reason why I would call someone a cracker. I stand corrected.
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

What about someone who constantly cracked their knuckles? I wouldn't say "knuckle-cracker", day in, day out.

I'd shorten it to "cracker".
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by TomJoe View Post
Perhaps you'll consider me "disingenuous" but I fail to see how the "n-word" is context dependent. Unless by "n-word" you mean "nappy", in which case I see your point (though I thought I made it clear that when I used the phrase "n-word" I wasn't talking about the word "nappy"). If you don't mean "nappy" then I guess I'm going to have to disagree. I can't see any contextually agreeable circumstance to call a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter) a "cracker" for instance.
I don't think you're being disingenuous, no, and I don't necessarily agree with all of the arguments about using the N-word in context. I am saying that there is a pretty big distinction between one black person calling another 'nigger.'* There's a perfectly good and valid argument that neither is acceptable. What's disingenuous is when people pretend they mean the same thing.

The main argument for the distinction is that they are coopting a very loaded term, just like the gay community coopted 'gay' and 'queer.'

Those two usages are very different. Whether one, both, or neither of them are acceptable or advisable is another issue, and one worth addressing.

*Example: A (middle-aged, conservative, professional, black) friend of mine was over for dinner once many years ago, and I was in the kitchen while he and my (then teenaged, white) son were in the living room, having a loud but very friendly disagreement about something--probably music or sports. I couldn't make any of the argument out at all, save for my friend exclaiming loudly, "OH, NIGGA, PLEEEASE!" That word, in that context, did not mean the same thing as 'nigger.'
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti
Apparently McGuirk referred to the Rutgers team as "jigaboos" on the broadcast in question.
Apparently the "the Jigaboos vs. the Wannabes" comment was a reference to a scene from Spike Lee's School Daze.

Btw I just watched the video of the broadcast, and it seems to me that Imus was implying that the women were ugly, not denigrating them for being black.

Transcript and more tidbits here.
Rosenberg's comparison of the Rutgers women's basketball team to the Raptors recalled comments he made in June 2001 about Venus and Serena Williams, two African-American female professional tennis players. According to a November 20, 2001, Newsday article, Rosenberg said on the air: "One time, a friend, he says to me, 'Listen, one of these days you're gonna see Venus and Serena Williams in Playboy.' I said, 'You've got a better shot at National Geographic.' " Rosenberg also referred to Venus Williams as an "animal."
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by TomJoe View Post
I can't see any contextually agreeable circumstance to call a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter) a "cracker" for instance.
How often do black people call each other "nigga" at work? Especially if they're in whatever kind of work it is you do?
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The main argument for the distinction is that they are coopting a very loaded term, just like the gay community coopted 'gay' and 'queer.'
Well, as the resident homo, I must inform you that technically straight people coopted "gay" to use as an insult, rather than the gays taking a former insult and making it a positive term.

Unless you simply mean the gay community taking the word and making it mean "homosexual" in the first place, but at that point it wasn't used as an insult, so...
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Well, as the resident homo, I must inform you that technically straight people coopted "gay" to use as an insult, rather than the gays taking a former insult and making it a positive term.
Ha! I defer to your superior knowledge on the subject, and retract the part about 'gay.'

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Old 04-11-2007, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

Ok, so "gay" doesn't work as a reclaimed insult. But the homos do use "faggot" (not so much me on that one) and "homo" amongst each other, however. I dunno what the lesbians do. It seems that they use "dyke" a fair amount, but I don't know about "lesbo" or other terms.

I feel like that I can understand (to an extent) some of the different views that black people have on the use of "nigga" by examining my views towards "faggot". I think it is sometimes acceptable for a straight person to say "faggot" outside of discussing the word itself. I won't say anything so extreme as no straight person can say it and I think it would be silly to insist on people calling it the "f-word" or anything like that (besides the fact that that's already taken by "fuck"). But generally speaking, it's more likely to be offensive coming out of a straight person's mouth - the difference is particularly great if it's an attempt at using it as a term of endearment. But I myself am not a huge fan of using it as a term of endearment in general and I personally rarely use it that way, and so I wouldn't apply the same standards to it that many black people seem to apply to "nigga".

I do not generally like to be called a "faggot" even if it is by another gay person. It is likely to cause a visceral reaction in me. But I scoff at any one who is scarred for life by a single usage. It doesn't bother me because I heard it just once, but because it was used quite frequently and viciously throughout middle and high school.

Some radio personality calling me that would bother me, but I'm not gonna exaggerate it like that.

I also don't find any problem with not complaining as vigorously about rap artists. If there are gay artists using the word "faggot" out there, I might disagree with it, but they are not the ones who are the problem from my point of view. Gay people's use of language is not contributing to the oppression of gay people in any comparable amount to straight people's use of language. It might be worthy of criticism, but it is by no means as much of a problem.
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:36 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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I also don't find any problem with not complaining as vigorously about rap artists. If there are gay artists using the word "faggot" out there, I might disagree with it, but they are not the ones who are the problem from my point of view. Gay people's use of language is not contributing to the oppression of gay people in any comparable amount to straight people's use of language. It might be worthy of criticism, but it is by no means as much of a problem.
And does the mere use of a word contribute to oppression when spoken by straight types? Or is the oppression more an issue of deed?

I find it hard to understand why any word should be off-limits to a certain demographic because of the word itself, and not because of any intent behind it. A word is not inherently evil or damaging just because it is said by a certain section of society, or even any section of society at all, though at least in the latter case if there is univeral disapproval for it, sanctions for its use could be justified.
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Old 04-11-2007, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

It is more related to the intent behind the words.

It was not gay people saying faggot that made me ashamed that the insults directed at me were actually true. I personally don't feel that I'm completely over my internalized homophobia, and the constant use of "gay" and "fag" and so forth as insults during middle and high school (and to a lesser extent, continuing into college) was a not insignificant factor in creating it. So you'll excuse me if I'm not wanting to say that I don't care if straights call me it, even if they don't mean it in a bad way.

I would find silly any suggestion that I should be just as focused on how, say Jonny McGovern, is using the word "faggot" as on how straight people use it, since what he does is not as much of a problem. And I completely understand why blacks would find the use by other blacks to be less of an issue, even if they don't agree with the way it's used by some blacks.

But even if the intent is not bad, simply the fact that you are straight makes me more uncertain of your motives, therefore makes it less acceptable. I don't state it categorically, I am fine with it being used by straight people sometimes, in certain ways. I guess it's partially an issue of trust - if I know you, and I know that you wouldn't be using it with malicious intent, then you can say things that out of the mouths of other people would bother me. But for gay people, that threshold is considerably lower, I am much more easily convinced that a gay person is not using it with malicious intent, for reasons that I think ought to be obvious. And even when I don't really like the way it was used by a gay person, due to that, it's still less objectionable than a straight person using it the same way.

Anyway, I'm trying to explain how I feel about it, but at the same time, I don't necessarily expect you to really understand what it's like. I don't want to say that I really understand what it feels like for a black person to be called a "nigger", but I definitely feel that I can understand it more than a straight white male because I at least have experienced a truly hateful slur being directed at me that actually applies to me.

I mean, when TomJoe is trying to make a comparison of the usage of cracker to "nigger/nigga" it seems pretty silly to me. I'm white, I understand what "cracker" is like, and it's nothing like "faggot", and I can quite safely assume that it's nothing like "nigger" either. "Cracker" is not a very good basis for comparison - we're talking about offensiveness and social acceptability, and "cracker" simply is nowhere near as offensive.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

You want outrage?! I'll give you outrage!!1! :rant:

Wait.. what was I outraged about again? :stwitch:
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
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Originally Posted by TomJoe View Post
I can't see any contextually agreeable circumstance to call a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter) a "cracker" for instance.
How often do black people call each other "nigga" at work?
At my place of work, never as far as I know. You do see where I said "or anyone else for that matter" too, right?
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Especially if they're in whatever kind of work it is you do?
As if that matters? Is it ok for someone to be called (or call someone else) a "nigga/cracker/chink/wop" in a blue collar setting, and not in an office setting?
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Originally Posted by erimir
I mean, when TomJoe is trying to make a comparison of the usage of cracker to "nigger/nigga" it seems pretty silly to me. I'm white, I understand what "cracker" is like, and it's nothing like "faggot", and I can quite safely assume that it's nothing like "nigger" either.
Ah, so erimir gets to establish what is offensive to whom, and how much?

Having spent a fair portion of the last month in supervisory classes, which spent a great deal of time discussing EEO and diversity-related issues, I can tell you that it doesn't matter one bit what you or I think about the issue. All it takes is for one individual overhearing the conversation, to be offended, and it becomes a Big Deal. You call a person a "cracker" in the government workplace, and if they say they (or anyone else for that matter who heard it) were offended, you may very well lose your job. Saying "Well, it's not as offensive as nigger or faggot." won't mean a damn thing. Be it sexual harassment, feelings of racial discrimination, or feelings of being threatened on the job ... it is based solely on the individual expressing that opinion.

Which is why maybe people think it's ok to use those words in proper context, but it's foolish to hold to that premise in many places (i.e., especially work), IMO.
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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At my place of work, never as far as I know. You do see where I said "or anyone else for that matter" too, right?
So how exactly is this then relevant to the use of the word "nigga"?

If black people don't use it there, then the fact that you wouldn't call a coworker a cracker is pretty irrelevant. What might be relevant is whether you would call a friend a cracker in a casual setting.

But even if you wouldn't that may be simply a matter of usage. It would be kinda weird to call my friend a cracker simply because we don't say that, but I don't think it would be offensive.
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As if that matters? Is it ok for someone to be called (or call someone else) a "nigga/cracker/chink/wop" in a blue collar setting, and not in an office setting?
The relevant difference would be the level of formality in the workplace. If we're trying to get at the acceptableness of "nigga" in the first place, then you can't simply assume that it's wrong. If it is ok in some situations, how casual the situation is would be relevant.

So basically, I think that probably those black people who do use "nigga" to refer to each other would not be very likely to do so in an office, but might do so if they worked at a job with a more casual atmosphere.
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Ah, so erimir gets to establish what is offensive to whom, and how much?
Ah, so tell me: are you truly that offended by "cracker"? On the level of those other words?

I don't personally know anybody who is.
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You call a person a "cracker" in the government workplace, and if they say they (or anyone else for that matter who heard it) were offended, you may very well lose your job.
Given that the OP was discussing how rappers use the word "nigga" and why certain people don't complain more about that than Don Imus, I fail to see how regulations in a government workplace are relevant.

Not to mention the fact that even if it is true that what I say here might be ignored in such a situation, it does not affect the truth of it.
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

I never thought I would miss "honkie." "Cracker" is just so ... bland.
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:38 PM
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At my place of work, never as far as I know. You do see where I said "or anyone else for that matter" too, right?
So how exactly is this then relevant to the use of the word "nigga"?
It's relevant because you asked me. I assumed you asked me because you wanted to know. The issue is not mooted simply because it isn't used at my work place.

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If black people don't use it there, then the fact that you wouldn't call a coworker a cracker is pretty irrelevant.
First off, it was an example. Second, it doesn't have to be relevant to my particular workplace. It is a legitimate question to be asked: Is this type of language suitable anywhere? I contend it is not. If you want to go around calling your friends fags, I don't see how you can get upset if someone else uses the phrase on you. Some people claim context is everything, but misunderstandings happen all the time. I believe it's simply better to leave those loaded phrases out of daily discourse altogether.

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What might be relevant is whether you would call a friend a cracker in a casual setting.
Which is why I said, and you have missed a couple of times now: or anyone else for that matter. Capiche?

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The relevant difference would be the level of formality in the workplace.
Since everyone is different, it would be logical to eliminate phrases capable of causing hurt, out of the workplace. Not everyone might enjoy hearing the word "nigga" in their workplace or in casual settings, even if they do not speak up. They may not speak up out of fear of retribution, discrimination, undue peer-pressure, etc etc.

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If it is ok in some situations, how casual the situation is would be relevant.
I don't think it's "ok" in some situations.

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So basically, I think that probably those black people who do use "nigga" to refer to each other would not be very likely to do so in an office, but might do so if they worked at a job with a more casual atmosphere.
And how do they know that they're not offending other black people in that more casual atmosphere? Just because no one speaks up doesn't mean they're not being offended.

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Ah, so tell me: are you truly that offended by "cracker"? On the level of those other words?
I find the phrase disgraceful and disgusting. I would not use it, nor would I accept being referred to by it.

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Given that the OP was discussing how rappers use the word "nigga" and why certain people don't complain more about that than Don Imus, I fail to see how regulations in a government workplace are relevant.
You inquired about my workplace. Don't complain about it now that I answered your inquiry. Especially since it's my OP too.
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Last edited by TomJoe; 04-11-2007 at 07:49 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:04 AM
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erimir erimir is offline
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

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Originally Posted by TomJoe View Post
If you want to go around calling your friends fags, I don't see how you can get upset if someone else uses the phrase on you.
Well, besides the fact that I don't want to go around calling my friends fags, if you can't see why I would react differently it can only be because you have completely ignored what I've said in my other posts.
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And how do they know that they're not offending other black people in that more casual atmosphere? Just because no one speaks up doesn't mean they're not being offended.
They may or may not. However, since the OP was about how people respond to white people vs. black people using the terms, they could be offended and yet still consider it much less of an issue than white people using the term. They could be more offended by white people using it.

And I would completely understand it if they were.
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I find the phrase disgraceful and disgusting. I would not use it, nor would I accept being referred to by it.
Sure, if someone called me a cracker in a hateful way, it would probably bother me. But not as much as faggot, by a long shot. And it is acceptable in far more situations.

But as I said earlier, I don't really expect you to understand. As I am a white gay person, I understand how the term cracker is used and what it's liked to be called one, and I know that it is not something that has been used against me in the same way as faggot, and I know that it is not equivalent.

The impression I get (and I'm sure you'll say I'm wrong) is that it's nothing but an oversensitivity adopted based on a (flawed) argument that "cracker" should be just as bad as "nigger" and "faggot" and so forth, rather than a sensitivity based on the lived experience of having such a word used against you in hate.
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You inquired about my workplace. Don't complain about it now that I answered your inquiry. Especially since it's my OP too.
I only inquired about your workplace because I wanted to demonstrate the irrelevance of your example. And I only felt the need to do that because you used it as an example. I don't think it's relevant to your OP. Certainly you have a right to go off on tangents, but I equally reserve the right to call those tangents irrelevant.
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:38 AM
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godfry n. glad godfry n. glad is offline
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Default Re: Where's the outrage?

So, what I hear some saying is that it is alright for some to use terminology that others' use would be considered offensive. Is that right?

It's okay for a homosexual to use the word "faggot" but it's not okay for a non-homosexual? It's okay for black men and women to use terms like "nigga", "ho", and "nappy-headed", but it's not for non-black men or women?

Y'know... That sounds like discrimination based upon skin color or sexual preference. Censorious discrimination.
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