Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-01-2017, 11:03 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
"The idea of Salvation comes, I believe, from one whom suffering breaks apart." -Bataille
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: MVCCCXL
Default Homage to Catalonia

The Nation-State Strikes Back - Lawyers, Guns & Money

It's sure charming to see other countries picking up the worst traits of our police culture. I have to think this is going to push a lot of people who were previously on the fence, and even some who were opposed, towards supporting Catalan independence.

Isn't this a violation of some form of EU law, though? It seems like it'd have to be.
__________________


“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith

“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

FG · last.fm · soundcloud
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Ari (10-02-2017), JoeP (10-02-2017), Kamilah Hauptmann (10-02-2017), lisarea (10-19-2017)
  #2  
Old 10-01-2017, 11:35 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
"The idea of Salvation comes, I believe, from one whom suffering breaks apart." -Bataille
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: MVCCCXL
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

Further Perversions in Social Media: The Catalonian Independence Referendum – Balloon Juice

Adam Silverman has convincing evidence that the Russians are sowing chaos behind the scenes here. This doesn't explain why Spain decided to overreact in such a destructive fashion, but it does make the story a lot more complicated. The comments are also worth reading if you have time.
__________________


“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith

“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

FG · last.fm · soundcloud
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kamilah Hauptmann (10-02-2017)
  #3  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:28 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
Illegitimi non carborundum, mater irrumator praetor.
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMMDCXLI
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

As an aside, not a shot, America did not invent the police state. Nor does the current conditions in America have much if anything to do with this, possible Russian meddling aside.

Comment from LGM:

Judas Peckerwood
3 hours ago
And in hell, Franco cracks a smile...

farin
2 hours ago
As of now, however, he remains dead.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (10-02-2017)
  #4  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:48 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCDLVII
Images: 11
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

I was sympathetic to both Assange and Snowden initially. Assange has revealed himself as obviously a right-wing racist/misogynist who is allied with Russia, but I was thinking Snowden is just a libertarian/politically not very bright, as demonstrated by this tweet:


(Apparently, he has deleted it. He tried to play it off as a joke, in the sense that obviously he knew Trump was a tool of Goldman Sachs or something? Doesn't make any sense.)

But it seems to me that Snowden is also a Russian tool at this point. That could've been from the beginning, or could be a result of his current living arrangements. It's hard to think that his continued safety in Russia is unconditional. Either way, I don't trust his judgment or his motives at this point.

Meanwhile, Rajoy seems to have fucked up royally. I can't imagine anyway in which a violent police response is better for Spain or Catalonia. While I'm generally sympathetic to ethno-linguistic groups wanting self-governance, even independence (particularly after historically having their identities repressed, as Catalonia suffered for decades under Franco), it seems unlikely that they'd really be better off independent. Either way, Rajoy has likely strengthened support for secession now.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (10-02-2017), Kamilah Hauptmann (10-02-2017), lisarea (10-19-2017), Sauron (10-15-2017), The Man (10-02-2017)
  #5  
Old 10-02-2017, 01:02 AM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is offline
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCLXVI
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

I've been disappointed with people I know who have continued to defend Assange and Wikileaks as some sort of shining knight of free information when at this point he's so clearly a paranoid controling man who will happily bias information if it suits him.

I doubt Snowden started out Russian or that he really is even today, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some team that's goal is to sway his views towards russian interests without him even realizing it, as there's no way all his data in and out isn't being tracked and messed with.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (10-02-2017), Kamilah Hauptmann (10-02-2017), The Man (10-02-2017), Zehava (10-02-2017)
  #6  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:52 AM
JoeP's Avatar
JoeP JoeP is offline
[thanks] whisperer
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England/Miisaland
Gender: Male
Posts: XXMMMCCLXV
Images: 18
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

Spain to impose direct rule on Catalonia as deadline passes | World news | The Guardian

The normal workings of a democratically-legitimised fully representative government.
__________________

:roadrun:
Free thought! Please take one!

:unitedkingdom:   :southafrica:   :unitedkingdom::finland:       :eur:       :m&ms::m&ms::twix::twix: (rotated 180°):m&ms::m&ms:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (10-19-2017)
  #7  
Old 10-19-2017, 12:55 PM
Stormlight's Avatar
Stormlight Stormlight is offline
Not a relevant party
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Gender: Male
Posts: XLMCIX
Images: 92
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

:deepsigh:

That's what you get when you have populists/nationalists calling the shots. And I'm talking about the Catalan government here. The "referendum" was illegal and Brussels would do well to stay on Madrid's side.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-27-2017, 09:50 PM
Stormlight's Avatar
Stormlight Stormlight is offline
Not a relevant party
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Gender: Male
Posts: XLMCIX
Images: 92
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

Spanish PM dissolves Catalan parliament and calls fresh elections | World news | The Guardian

So finally the populists declared independence from Spain. And Spain dissolves the Catalan parliament. Good.

Quote:
Rajoy said the Catalan government had been removed along with the head of the regional police force, the Mossos d’Esquadra. The Catalan government’s international “embassies” are also to be shut down.

“I have decided to call free, clean and legal elections as soon as possible to restore democracy,” he told a press conference, adding that the aim of the measures was to “restore the self-government that has been eliminated by the decisions of the Catalan government.

“We never, ever wanted to get to this situation. Nor do we think that it would be good to prolong this exceptional [state of affairs]. But as we have always said, this is not about suspending autonomy but about restoring it.”

The actions came hours after Spain’s national unity suffered a decisive blow when Catalan MPs in the 135-seat regional parliament voted for independence by a margin of 70 votes to 10.

Dozens of opposition MPs boycotted the secret ballot, marching out of the chamber in Barcelona before it took place and leaving Spanish and Catalan flags on their empty seats in protest.
And all this because a minority of the Catalan people refuse to support the poorer parts of Spain with part of their taxes. Pathetic. :puke:
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Watser? (10-27-2017)
  #9  
Old 10-27-2017, 10:13 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
"The idea of Salvation comes, I believe, from one whom suffering breaks apart." -Bataille
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: MVCCCXL
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

Chrome ate my first reply so this one will end up being a bit pithier than I intended. (Evidently I need to restart Lazarus.)

From where I'm sitting, neither side is coming out looking too good. Very nearly all the grievances the Catalan secession movement claimed before this month have been trivial at best and outright fatuous at worst, particularly given the ample evidence that Putin is backing the secession movement behind the scenes. However, Rajoy's response was completely indefensible. Regardless of what one thinks of a vote's legitimacy or lack thereof, attacking people who are engaging peacefully in a democratic process is beyond the pale. After this, I can't fault any Catalan who wants out of Spain too heavily, regardless of how good they have it overall. With Rajoy's government basically endorsing police brutality against Catalan citizens, I can entirely understand why Catalans don't feel safe in their own country.

At the same time, I don't really think secession is the answer. To me, this looks like the sort of thing where the EU itself should intervene. In fact, this looks to me to be an example of pretty much exactly the kind of dispute it was created to resolve, and while I haven't studied it lately, it was part of my university degree and from my recollection I'm almost certain aspects of Rajoy's response have violated aspects of the EU charter. And to be clear, if this secession thing goes through, it will probably end up economically devastating both countries.

In short, Rajoy is an asshole, the Catalan independence movement is at best foolish, and the EU needs to intervene to stop this inanity from escalating on both sides before it gets even worse.
__________________


“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith

“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

FG · last.fm · soundcloud
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (10-30-2017), JoeP (10-28-2017)
  #10  
Old 10-28-2017, 12:36 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCDLVII
Images: 11
Default Re: Homage to Catalonia

Yeah, from my view it probably won't come to a good resolution without Spain making some concessions towards Catalonia.

Independence will be painful for both sides, out of pride/spite and out of concern not to encourage other secessionists (and Spain itself has other secessionist groups to worry about).

But the Spanish gov't is likely only inflaming secessionist sentiments with their response.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (10-28-2017), The Man (10-28-2017)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.31767 seconds with 13 queries