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  #76  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
:lol: What could be clearer than, "Give all your stuff to the poor"?
Actually, the passage you are referring to, Mark 10:21, is rather ambiguous. Not in terms of the explicit instruction, "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.", but in terms of to whom it is addressed. The context for this passage is a conversation with a rich young man about what he needs to do to attain eternal life. Is Jesus' response a general prescription for all of his followers or is it a specific prescription for the problems of the rich young man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark 10:17-27
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’d”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it ise to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Given that the very next verse says "At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth." I would suggest that Jesus was applying a particular remedy to a particular problem. In this case the problem is that the young man in question is more deeply attached to his wealth than he is to his desire to obey God and attain eternal life. Such a prescription would not necessarily apply to someone who lacked such a strong attachment to his wealth. If this passage points to a general principle at all, I would suggest that the principle is something along the lines of "get rid of whatever stands in the way of your doing God's will". That principle itself is simply a variation on the 1st Commandment, "You shall have no other God's before me."

The young man in Mk. 10:21 believes that he has been keeping the commandments all his life. Jesus shows him that this is not the case. So long as his attachment to his possessions is greater than his desire to do God's will, then just so long is he breaking the 1st Commandment.

You keep asking australian if he/she has given all of his/her stuff to the poor yet, as if raising that point somehow constitutes a devastating rebuttal to all of his/her arguments. The question is only relevant if australian happens to be on of those Christians who believe that Jesus meant for that specific prescription to be treated as a universal rule that applies to all of his followers. Even then its only relevence would be to demonstrate that he/she is not very good at practicing what he/she preaches. However, most Christians don't interpret it that way. Most Christians do see the 1st Commandment as a universal rule and most would understand this passage as being a particluar application of that commandment. The key word here being "particular", as in applying to a particular kind of problem. As it is, neither you nor I know enough about australian to even hazard a guess at whether or not this specific prescription applies to him/her.

So, give it a rest. It is remarkably weak sauce.
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  #77  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Unfortunately, Angakuk, that's a general problem of the Bible. How do you know whether the prescription is intended specifically or universally? You read into it what you want, or what you think is true, but you don't know. This is remarkably odd, given that God is supposed to be instructing us through his son. Aren't we entitled to think that the creator of the universe should be perhaps a bit clearer in his meaning?

Also, how do we square Jesus telling the man, "honor your mother and father" with “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."?

And where in the New Testament are we to find preaching against gays?
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  #78  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Ang, what is your take on the bolded below?? I have had this discussion with my born again friend and she discussed it with her pastor, supposedly, but I never did get a response.

Mat 19 “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So, that seems to me to also give any number of people a pass from the "one man and one woman" thing, because the message was not meant for or given to them.
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  #79  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

How does one determine whether a particular person is more attached to their wealth than to following God?

Clearly the rich man was incapable of determining this for himself. Clearly, when it was suggested that he should get rid of it, he was insistent that he was, in fact, properly obeying God. So it doesn't seem that simply because someone thinks they're already good Christians and that this isn't really an obligation that it is necessarily the case.

When you tell a Christian it is their duty to give up their worldly possessions, how can they refuse without behaving just as the rich man in the story did?
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  #80  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

There is, of course, the book of Luke:

6:27-31

But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

The bolded text lacks qualifiers restricting this behavior to certain individuals and situations. True, it doesn't say, "If you're rich, give it all away," but it might as well. If the above proscription was followed faithfully, a rich person wouldn't remain rich--which is a good or bad thing, depending upon your ideology.
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  #81  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Also, Angakuk, consider this:

Quote:
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
From these passages, it seems quite clear that Jesus has gone from the particular (the individual to whom he was addressing his remarks) to the universal. He is now plainly speaking of "the rich" in a general, universal context.
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  #82  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Also, Angakuk, consider this:

Quote:
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
From these passages, it seems quite clear that Jesus has gone from the particular (the individual to whom he was addressing his remarks) to the universal. He is now plainly speaking of "the rich" in a general, universal context.
We could imagine that in the above passage, Jesus was speaking metaphorically, analogically, or via parable, as he so often did. When he speaks of "a rich man," it is too narrow-scope a reading to suggest that he is singling out people of great wealth or property. On a wider-scope reading, he may be referring to any who are "rich" in any self-absorbed, wordly sense -- rich in ego, rich in self-regard, rich in vanity, rich in actual riches -- in such a way that they are blinded to to the message Jesus is imparting. That's perfectly possible, and if so, he is not singling out the actual wealthy in particular. I even like that kind of reading, because it's rich (!) with the ambiguity and multiple meanings of fine literature, which I like.

The problem, though, is that we ought to expect that passages like these don't succumb to the ambiguity of literature, if we should suppose, as Christians tell us, that our salvation lies in a correct understanding of them. In that case, one longs for clarity and not the equivocal ambiguity of fine literature.
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  #83  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by australian View Post
I should point out that the AFA no longer seem to cite Paul Cameron. I used the search function to find his name on their website. Various references to Camerons resulted, but not a Paul Cameron.
Perhaps. Nonetheless they are a bigoted group that relies on shoddy research in order to demonize the gay community; Paul Cameron was merely a particularly egregious example.
Quote:
If you are a homosexual, I mean you no harm or ill will.
Given that you wrote that it is a Christian obligation to oppose same-sex marriage, even though this law would apply to non-Christians (and those Christians who disagree with you), unfortunately, yes, you do mean harm to LGBT people. You might like to think that you don't, but what you support does them harm.
Quote:
I honestly believe that the Bible refers to homosexual sex as a sin, and I honestly feel bad if I dont stand for what I believe. I dont mean to hurt anyone. My points here are about Christianity, and my assumption is that any homosexuals using this website would not be Christians, so ultimately this isnt about them.
There are Christians on this website, some of whom would take LGBT issues personally.
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  #84  
Old 04-26-2012, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

There are plenty of Christian churches that don't have a problem with gay people or their relationships. There are gay Christians all over the world, and some of them even get married in church, gaspity gasp. Why should the denominations that consider gay sex and gay marriage a sin have the right to determine how other people practice their religion, never mind who gets to enter into a civil marriage?
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  #85  
Old 04-26-2012, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Also, Angakuk, consider this:

Quote:
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
From these passages, it seems quite clear that Jesus has gone from the particular (the individual to whom he was addressing his remarks) to the universal. He is now plainly speaking of "the rich" in a general, universal context.
Quote:
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. ~ Mark 10:26-27
That seems to throw a damper on the idea a bit. So no, just because somebody is "rich," doesn't necessarily preclude them from going to heaven. I think Jesus is referring more to the relationship one might have with wealth, whether you are selfish, greedy, charitable, etc., similar to what you had mentioned earlier I believe. He doesn't seem to be frowning on "the rich" per se' in other words.
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  #86  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

It's impossible to be rich without having a certain amount of "worldly-ness". And any "worldly-ness" is inconsistent with the Christianities presented in the NT texts.

Why should one strive to be rich? The world's going to end any day now, or so 1st and 2nd Century Christian belief ran.

Christianity was the religion of the poor. The religion of those whose life couldn't get crappier. And it spread like AIDS because it promised slaves they could become immortal big-shots. Opiate of the masses, indeed.
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  #87  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Unfortunately, Angakuk, that's a general problem of the Bible. How do you know whether the prescription is intended specifically or universally? You read into it what you want, or what you think is true, but you don't know. This is remarkably odd, given that God is supposed to be instructing us through his son. Aren't we entitled to think that the creator of the universe should be perhaps a bit clearer in his meaning?

Also, how do we square Jesus telling the man, "honor your mother and father" with “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."?

And where in the New Testament are we to find preaching against gays?
Well david, obviously one can't know, which is as good an explanation as any for the varience in interpretations and the existence of conflicting doctrines and denominations. You are certainly entitled to think whatever you like. I don't know that the creator of the universe is obligated to conform to your preferences.

With regard to the use of the word 'hate' in the passage you quote, I read that as hyperbole. The point of the passage, as I interpret it, is really rather similar the Mk. 10:21 passage. That is, being a disciple of Jesus requires that one put following him above all other considerations, even the considerations of family. In that respect it is an even stronger expression of the 1st Commandment principle in that proper respect and consideration for family is also a requirement of the law.

You won't find anything about homosexuality in the Gospels. It is simply not addressed there. The key N.T. texts that are usually cited with regard to homosexuality are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 1: 24-27
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
(All citations are from the New International Version)
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  #88  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Ang, what is your take on the bolded below?? I have had this discussion with my born again friend and she discussed it with her pastor, supposedly, but I never did get a response.

Mat 19 “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So, that seems to me to also give any number of people a pass from the "one man and one woman" thing, because the message was not meant for or given to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 19:3-12
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
From the context it is clear that Jesus is talking about celibacy as an alternative to marriage. He is not saying that it is a better alternative, only that for those who aren't able to accept his rather uncompromising position on divorce they would be better off remaining celibate rather than run the risk of committing adultery. I think that the underlying assumption about marriage is that it is between a man and woman. That is reinforced by his quotations from Genesis in verse 4.
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  #89  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
How does one determine whether a particular person is more attached to their wealth than to following God?

Clearly the rich man was incapable of determining this for himself. Clearly, when it was suggested that he should get rid of it, he was insistent that he was, in fact, properly obeying God. So it doesn't seem that simply because someone thinks they're already good Christians and that this isn't really an obligation that it is necessarily the case.

When you tell a Christian it is their duty to give up their worldly possessions, how can they refuse without behaving just as the rich man in the story did?
I don't think that it is clearly the case that the rich man was incapable of recognizing his problem, just that he hadn't done so. It does seem clear to me that Jesus was exercising an unusual degree of discernment, a gift that is not given to everyone. As for telling someone that it is their duty to give up worldly possessions, I don't pretend to have that kind of authority. As for the rich man, we don't know, as Paul Harvey might say, the rest of the story. It is not inconceivable that he may have, upon subsequent reflection, recognized the truth of what Jesus was telling him and acted accordingly.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
You won't find anything about homosexuality in the Gospels. It is simply not addressed there. The key N.T. texts that are usually cited with regard to homosexuality are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 1: 24-27
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
(All citations are from the New International Version)
All written by Paul, who was kind of a dick and who, I think, routinely used the name of God to add authority to his personal opinions.

Do you find it interesting or telling in any way that the Gospels make no mention of it and neither does Jesus?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

So why do you think evangelicals have such a high divorce rate, while simultaneously working against civil marriages for gay people that may or may not share their religious views?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Ang, what is your take on the bolded below?? I have had this discussion with my born again friend and she discussed it with her pastor, supposedly, but I never did get a response.

Mat 19 “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So, that seems to me to also give any number of people a pass from the "one man and one woman" thing, because the message was not meant for or given to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 19:3-12
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
From the context it is clear that Jesus is talking about celibacy as an alternative to marriage. He is not saying that it is a better alternative, only that for those who aren't able to accept his rather uncompromising position on divorce they would be better off remaining celibate rather than run the risk of committing adultery. I think that the underlying assumption about marriage is that it is between a man and woman. That is reinforced by his quotations from Genesis in verse 4.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Also, Angakuk, consider this:

Quote:
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
From these passages, it seems quite clear that Jesus has gone from the particular (the individual to whom he was addressing his remarks) to the universal. He is now plainly speaking of "the rich" in a general, universal context.
We could imagine that in the above passage, Jesus was speaking metaphorically, analogically, or via parable, as he so often did. When he speaks of "a rich man," it is too narrow-scope a reading to suggest that he is singling out people of great wealth or property. On a wider-scope reading, he may be referring to any who are "rich" in any self-absorbed, wordly sense -- rich in ego, rich in self-regard, rich in vanity, rich in actual riches -- in such a way that they are blinded to to the message Jesus is imparting. That's perfectly possible, and if so, he is not singling out the actual wealthy in particular. I even like that kind of reading, because it's rich (!) with the ambiguity and multiple meanings of fine literature, which I like.

The problem, though, is that we ought to expect that passages like these don't succumb to the ambiguity of literature, if we should suppose, as Christians tell us, that our salvation lies in a correct understanding of them. In that case, one longs for clarity and not the equivocal ambiguity of fine literature.
Read my sig. I like the ambiguity. I tend to view intolerance for ambiguity as evidence of a weak mind.

I don't know what other Christians of your acquaintance may believe, but I don't believe that salvation rests on one's ability to correctly interpret the whole of scripture. The essential component of salvific faith is to believe and trust that Jesus Christ is the author of one's salvation. The rest is mostly window dressing. It is not so much a matter of what you know as who you know.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:51 AM
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Do you find it interesting or telling in any way that the Gospels make no mention of it and neither does Jesus?
Not particularly. There are a lot of things that are never addressed in the Gospels.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:53 AM
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So why do you think evangelicals have such a high divorce rate, while simultaneously working against civil marriages for gay people that may or may not share their religious views?
Do they? Maybe it has something to do with a lack of tolerance for ambiguity. Human relationships are rife with ambiguity.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:54 AM
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Paul certainly seemed to believe they had a perverse relationship.
Who - David & Jonathan? Interesting! Where is he recorded as indicating this? Thanks.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

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Could you please quote these passages, along with the relevant context?
In answer to your request that I quote the passages, im going to decline, sorry. You are able to look up these passages by visiting BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. for example, and entering the references I gave you into the search box in the top left of the screen.
I'm really not interested in prowling through your silly blog for these answers. Either put up or shut up.
davidm, I believe you underestimate the difficulty of providing context to a quote from the Bible. No matter how hard I try to include context, I still cant cover it all. You have the culture of the time the given passage was written, the context of any immediate narrative from which the passage is taken, and the wider context of the Bible. One person might quote a passage and give you their honest assessment of its context, and someone else can easily come along and point out an element that they believe is contextually relevant, but which the person doing the quoting simply hadnt thought of. That being the case, and the fact that Ive referred you to a website where you can have a go at looking up context yourself, Im not going to try to provide it, Im sorry.
However, I can imagine that you might believe the accusation that the Bible does not rule out homosexual sex for Christians, and that such a policy is simply an expression of prejudiced religious people who read into the Bible whatever they want. To try to show that such an accusation is false, I will list some passages that indicate that homosexual sex and more broadly, homosexual relationships, are not sanctioned in the Bible for Christians. Unfortunately for those who are sensitive to the issue, I should warn that some of the following passages are sharply worded, as they were written to a Judeo-Christian audience who were being admonished for misbehaving. These are from a recent NIV translation:

*Leviticus 18:22 "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
*Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
*Matthew 19:4 " “Haven’t you read,” [Jesus] replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? "
*Matthew 19:10-11 "The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” "
*Romans 1:26,27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
*1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were."
*1 Timothy 1:9-10 "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"

As indicated in the video at the start of this thread, some argue that the above English is not a good translation from the original languages, and there are also arguments that the passages do not mean what they appear to state. But in any case, most Bibles in English translate most of the above verses in fairly similar ways.

Last edited by australian; 04-27-2012 at 03:43 AM. Reason: Accidentally posted before completing the post
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  #97  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:02 AM
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30Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?

31For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.

32And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain? what hath he done?

33And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

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Paul certainly seemed to believe they had a perverse relationship.
Who - David & Jonathan? Interesting! Where is he recorded as indicating this? Thanks.
I think she meant Saul. Although the prophet Paul was also Saul of Tarsus, which may have contributed to her confusion.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

That was Saul, not Paul. Totally different dudes.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:30 AM
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Paul certainly seemed to believe they had a perverse relationship.
Who - David & Jonathan? Interesting! Where is he recorded as indicating this? Thanks.
I think she meant King Saul. Although the prophet Paul was also Saul of Tarsus, which may have contributed to her confusion.
And the confusion of her mother's nakedness.
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