Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old Yesterday, 05:51 PM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCCLXIX
Images: 2
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

I'm not seeing Biden's take on his son testifying as part of the impeachment. If there's nothing there, then for once the GOP is handing the Dems the cudgel to have themselves beaten with. The cudgel is in the other hand for a change. The position should be, sure, Hunter can testify, I can testify, no biggie. At most what you'll find is he got hired mostly on the strength of his last name. This puts the lie to the president's claim to be a corruption fighter. Why ask the Ukrainians to investigate? If the concern was corruption, was there no legal avenue for investigation available under our law?

Hasn't Dump gotten cushy jobs for his kids and relatives where their main qualification is their relation to him? Is that corrupt?

The Dems should be able to make hay. Am I missing something?

If Biden doesn't defuse this thing now and becomes the nominee, then his son becomes the stone hung round his neck that'll drag him down.
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old Yesterday, 06:18 PM
BrotherMan's Avatar
BrotherMan BrotherMan is offline
A Very Gentle Bort
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bortlandia
Gender: Male
Posts: XVMXXV
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 63
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
The Dems should be able to make hay. Am I missing something?
What everyone is missing and no one is talking about is it just doesn't matter. If there's something there? Gotcha! If there's nothing there? Who cares? Made you look! And because now everyone is talking about it those who support the Face Eating Leopards Trump will ride and die because if there was nothing there then why are we talking about it? The same goes for the actual Face Eating Leopards who are talking about this and talking about the talking about this.

Trump, as he as said himself, could literally murder a random ass person on the White House lawn and Face Eating Leopards would praise and defend him for it.

There are so many smoking guns that it looks like an ammunition factory has burned down. And yet. Here we are.
__________________
\V/_
I COVLD TEACh YOV BVT I MVST LEVY A FEE
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (Today), Crumb (Yesterday), JoeP (Yesterday), Kamilah Hauptmann (Yesterday), Qingdai (Today), slimshady2357 (Yesterday), Sock Puppet (Yesterday), SR71 (Yesterday), The Man (Yesterday)
  #403  
Old Yesterday, 06:59 PM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCCLXIX
Images: 2
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

I guess what I left out is that Hunter should have been used as a bargaining chip. If we say no no no Hunter won't testify, this isn't about him, Repubs can say with some veneer of plausibility that Dems want to pick witnesses and that there is something to hide about Burisma.

The dems should say sure, pick any witnesses you want, we only want these five (five being the current ask).

Offering him up
- demonstrates nothing to hide
- let's them say, there, you have your witness, now where are ours?
- defuses as much as possible Unca Joe's Hunter problem, which yep, since the Repubs won't find against Dump, it's gonna be a problem.

There are still a few undecideds out there. They need to hear witnesses, or at least know that the Dems did everything possible to have them presented and the Repubs still just wanted to hide everything everything everything.
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (Today)
  #404  
Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is online now
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMMDLXXVI
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
- let's them say, there, you have your witness, now where are ours?


Every god damned time trying to make a trade or act in good faith with the GOP.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (Today), JoeP (Yesterday), SR71 (Today), The Man (Yesterday)
  #405  
Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM
JoeP's Avatar
JoeP JoeP is online now
YELLOW HAIR FAKE ANIMAL
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England/Miisaland
Gender: Male
Posts: XXVMMCCLXIX
Images: 18
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Being straight and white and a man isn't really an identity, after all.
:sadyup:

That's why I identify as a fluffy cat.
__________________

:roadrun:
Free thought! Please take one!

:unitedkingdom:   :southafrica:   :unitedkingdom::finland:       :eur:       :m&ms::m&ms::twix::twix: (rotated 180°):m&ms::m&ms:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (Today), SR71 (Today), Stephen Maturin (Yesterday), Stormlight (Today), The Man (Yesterday)
  #406  
Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Did nothing but lick toilet paper
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMMDCII
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
That's why I identify as a YELLOW HAIR FAKE ANIMAL.
:fixed:
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (Yesterday), Kamilah Hauptmann (Yesterday), Qingdai (Today), SR71 (Today), Stormlight (Today), The Man (Today)
  #407  
Old Yesterday, 10:33 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is online now
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMMDLXXVI
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
That's why I identify as a YELLOW HAIR FAKE ANIMAL.
:fixed:
JoeP already touched on this. This is how cats look in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (Yesterday), Stephen Maturin (Yesterday), The Man (Today)
  #408  
Old Yesterday, 11:34 PM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCLXXXVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

How Not To Criticize Elizabeth Warren- Nathan J. Robinson in Current Affairs defends dancing generally, and how Warren was reviewed by others for her dancing at an event:
Quote:
But my main problem with criticizing Warren’s dancing is that it’s the wrong criticism. It’s irrelevant. I could not care less how Elizabeth Warren dances. I care about whether she is the person we should nominate to be president. And because I do not think she is the person we should nominate, I do not want to make criticisms of her that her supporters will correctly deem petty. If it seems like Bernie supporters just dislike Warren because she is uncool, and think we are the cool kids of the left, why should Warren supporters listen to a thing we say? In fact, they should probably like her more: She is a proud dork, standing up for the uncool everywhere, resisting the sneers. We need to show some decency to her and her supporters, because we are going to need to win them over in a general election, and we do not want them hating our guts for having looked down upon them and their candidate.

Just as you might expect after an unfair criticism, some of Warren’s fans wrote articles defending her, pointing out that women are often perceived as inauthentic and are in an impossible position, and that having fun is good. And they were right. In fact, I am frustrated with any and all social media mockery of Warren’s dance styles, because it allows her supporters to dismiss us, to avoid confronting the serious arguments against Warren because the criticism simply looks like cruelty. So I do not care what Warren wears, how her voice sounds, what she looks like when she moves, whether her supporters are too nerdy, or anything like that. What I care about is her vision for the country and her chances of enacting it.

I have written in a highly critical manner about Warren before. I think it is important to be blunt during primaries. Hillary Clinton’s supporters were furious that she was criticized harshly in the primary, but it is actually important to air the differences between candidates. If we opt for “unity” too early on, then candidates who have massive differences between them will look like they are the same. The arguments for each candidate, and against the others, need to be made clearly.

Because I fear Elizabeth Warren would make a bad general election candidate and a disappointing president, I want to draw attention to the parts of her record that I believe are indefensible.

With a flurry of endorsements, Bernie Sanders shores up Nevada support

Clark County (which contains Las Vegas) Black Caucus, Make the Road Action, Clark County Education Association (largest teacher's union in Nevada).

Biden says he would consider O'Rourke or Castro as running mates

Yup that's a thing he said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
impeachment.
I think the impeachment is going to be a distraction but I don't think it will have much impact on the Democratic presidential race other than to pin Senators in Washington for the trial; that just means surrogates work the field for that period. Plus aren't the odds still like high 90 percentile they acquit? Are people really excited about the Senate trial?
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
But (Today), SR71 (Today)
  #409  
Old Today, 01:38 AM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCCLXIX
Images: 2
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
- let's them say, there, you have your witness, now where are ours?


Every god damned time trying to make a trade or act in good faith with the GOP.
This is a little different since the rules will be written out. As it stands, the Repubs aren't obligated to concede anything whatsoever, as in they can just say, there won't be any witnesses, that's right, zero witnesses. Now let's get on with the proceedings. The Dems basically need any bargaining chips they can get. Biden needs to put the Hunter thing to bed. He's got to deal with it. Two birds, one stone.
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
  #410  
Old Today, 02:27 AM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCCLXIX
Images: 2
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Plus aren't the odds still like high 90 percentile they acquit? Are people really excited about the Senate trial?
@ chunks, idk, yesterday I would've said 90% acquit, but today I'm not so sure. One of the meatier defense arguments the House GOP raised was that it wasn't exactly illegal for Dump to put a hold on the Ukraine defense funds, and it was argued to an indeterminate stalemate during the proceedings. Today, however, the GAO said, no, this isn't debatable, it was unlawful to withhold the payment that was authorized by congress. I think this is an important development. The Repubs have been saying no crime, what crime, where's the crime? Well, there's a crime of the constitutional kind, failure to faithfully execute the laws.

Another bunker position was that none of the testimony was based on first hand knowledge (never mind the transcript call summary). I think having Mulvaney, Bolton, maybe Parnas and whoever the others are might put the words from Dump's lips to the witness' ear. That would be pretty stark evidence. Purritty stark.

:strike:
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
  #411  
Old Today, 03:02 AM
fragment's Avatar
fragment fragment is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Zealand
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCII
Blog Entries: 8
Images: 142
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
So yeah, Bernie won every county in the primary. So what? They would vote for Trump over Bernie by 37 pts
Can't you say much the same about all the southern states where Biden's primary support is the strongest? If the primaries say anything about chances against Trump, it's going to say it in key swing states.
Reply With Quote
  #412  
Old Today, 03:44 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMMCCLXXVIII
Images: 11
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

The primaries don't say anything about your chances in different states, generally speaking.

This is a graph of Clinton's margin vs. Sanders (x-axis) compared to her margin vs. Trump (y-axis), excluding DC which didn't vote until after she had already mathematically clinched the majority of pledged delegates.

There was basically no correlation whatsoever, and there's no reason to expect this primary will be different:



I suppose you could try to combine this with Trump's primary margin in the state, because after all, he was in all of the primaries too, but it's hard to think that you'd find literally next to no correlation with the Democratic results if that were the case. If primary performance were that useful, however, I'm sure it would be added into 538's models. It's not, because it isn't useful, and all the people who think they have a big point about how Sanders did in this state or that in the primary and think they're more clever than people who actually do the stats run up against the fact that this graph shows it to have been utterly irrelevant. I just hope if Bernie Sanders does win the nomination, he doesn't have people doing analysis of where they should campaign and what their standing is who are as mathematically illiterate as some of his fans (chunks is not the only person I've seen out there who delusionally thinks Bernie could put WV in play on the basis of him winning that primary).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dem primary vs general.jpg (150.7 KB, 21 views)

Last edited by erimir; Today at 03:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
fragment (Today), The Man (Today)
  #413  
Old Today, 04:07 AM
fragment's Avatar
fragment fragment is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Zealand
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCII
Blog Entries: 8
Images: 142
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
It's not, because it isn't useful, and all the people who think they have a big point about how Sanders did in this state or that in the primary and think they're more clever than people who actually do the stats run up against the fact that this graph shows it to have been utterly irrelevant.
But, again, this reasoning applies to every candidate. In fact, why have primaries at all if they don't give any indication about ability to win the general?
Reply With Quote
  #414  
Old Today, 04:09 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is online now
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMMDLXXVI
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
The Repubs have been saying no crime, what crime, where's the crime? Well, there's a crime of the constitutional kind, failure to faithfully execute the laws.
The final step of how these motherfuckers have been going since at least Gingrich in the 90s has been "Okay, crime. What you gonna do about it?"

I mean hell, Roy Moore was removed as a Chief Justice twice and still got 48% of the vote in 2017. And he's running again in 2020.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (Today)
  #415  
Old Today, 04:44 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMMCCLXXVIII
Images: 11
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
Offering [Hunter Biden] up
- demonstrates nothing to hide
- let's them say, there, you have your witness, now where are ours?
- defuses as much as possible Unca Joe's Hunter problem, which yep, since the Repubs won't find against Dump, it's gonna be a problem.
Hillary testified for 11 hours about Benghazi, showing there was nothing there, and yet...
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
It's not, because it isn't useful, and all the people who think they have a big point about how Sanders did in this state or that in the primary and think they're more clever than people who actually do the stats run up against the fact that this graph shows it to have been utterly irrelevant.
But, again, this reasoning applies to every candidate. In fact, why have primaries at all if they don't give any indication about ability to win the general?
:shrug:

That's a whole nother discussion. It would require a bit of time to explain both the origins of the system and to get into how useful a system it is for political parties and/or voters. I don't really know whether it is useful, tbh.

I know that most people would say that it's more democratically legitimate than having party insiders choose nominees, which is at least arguable, even if it could simultaneously be the case that it's unhelpful to parties.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (Today), fragment (Today), Kamilah Hauptmann (Today), The Man (Today)
  #416  
Old Today, 05:06 AM
fragment's Avatar
fragment fragment is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Zealand
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCII
Blog Entries: 8
Images: 142
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I know that most people would say that it's more democratically legitimate than having party insiders choose nominees
Bit of a false dichotomy there.
Reply With Quote
  #417  
Old Today, 05:27 AM
fragment's Avatar
fragment fragment is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Zealand
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCII
Blog Entries: 8
Images: 142
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
basically no correlation whatsoever
I just have to say that, in a complex data set with lots of potential covariates and causal relations, a simple correlation model between two variables is frequently next to useless. Covariates can hide actual causal relationships, or create spurious correlations.
Reply With Quote
  #418  
Old Today, 06:05 AM
BrotherMan's Avatar
BrotherMan BrotherMan is offline
A Very Gentle Bort
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bortlandia
Gender: Male
Posts: XVMXXV
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 63
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
That's why I identify as a FLOOFIN CHONKO
:fixed:
:fixed:
__________________
\V/_
I COVLD TEACh YOV BVT I MVST LEVY A FEE
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (Today), Kamilah Hauptmann (Today), The Man (Today)
  #419  
Old Today, 07:25 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMMCCLXXVIII
Images: 11
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I know that most people would say that it's more democratically legitimate than having party insiders choose nominees
Bit of a false dichotomy there.
That's true. That's part of why I put it in the mouth of "most people" rather than directly endorsing the view myself.

It is true that Americans tend to have that view, which is why the superdelegates so strongly siding with Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders was seen as unfair and undemocratic by some. And, for the more conspiracy-minded, even worse were supposed other tactics they used to "rig" the primaries for Clinton. It's taken for granted that the party shouldn't take a side, and shouldn't make it easier for one candidate or the other.

It's not totally clear to me whether that is a better system. The general election is democratic after all, and a party that chooses the wrong nominees doesn't automatically win power. It can be that in city machines, or in other districts where the seats are so safe that only a Democrat or a Republican can win, that this creates bad incentives. This seems to me to be as much a problem with the electoral system as it is the way nominations are decided. If we had a ranked choice system or one of the even better systems (imo), or proportional representation, these issues would be much less significant.

Certainly, I wouldn't want to say that all those countries with parliaments elected by proportional representation where the parties select their party list without a US-style primary of any sort don't have any democratic legitimacy. It doesn't seem to me that those systems are clearly worse for not having that.

But we're not about to get a parliamentary system in the US either, and we use the stupid first-past-the-post system, so the question of how US parties should choose nominees given the system we have might be different from what would be the best if you were designing things from scratch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
basically no correlation whatsoever
I just have to say that, in a complex data set with lots of potential covariates and causal relations, a simple correlation model between two variables is frequently next to useless. Covariates can hide actual causal relationships, or create spurious correlations.
That's true, but I would imagine the hypothesized relationship would be:

"More Clinton (or Sanders, or whoever) votes in the primary is because more people in that state like the candidate, ergo the candidate will do better in that state in the general election."

That hypothesis seems sensible enough. Now, you might need to account for the same factor on the Republican side to fully explain the variation, but Trump being more popular wouldn't erase the fact that Clinton was more popular, so you'd expect a closer race where they both won or both lost by similar margins, but a more lopsided race where one won and the other lost. However, it seems highly unlikely that there'd be no correlation in a simple two-variable model if that hypothesis were true.

And, at any rate, the graph I produced is sufficient to dismiss the theory that chunks was putting forth - that Bernie Sanders victory in the 2016 WV primary would give him the ability to put it into play, or for him to be able to force Manchin to do anything because voters there would be more inclined to listen to him than Manchin (presumably due to Bernie's great popularity there). He was using a simple two-variable model. The fact that the two-variable model fails spectacularly at explaining the data is sufficient to prove my point! And if there were a more complicated model where this variable had value, we have no reason to assume it would say that Bernie is popular enough in WV to put it into play, and very strong and independent reasons (such as hypothetical general election polls showing him losing to Trump by large margins, the state's partisan lean, etc.) to think that it wouldn't.

And like I said, there are people who do this for a living... The people at FiveThirtyEight, and others who do empirical/statistical analysis of elections, and they say the same thing. They don't use this in their models, and I'm sure they've investigated it.

It would be one thing if I pulled out this chart to try to discredit Nate Silver's analysis and models built on using this factor. But that's not what's happening here. People like chunks just pull this notion out of their asses, with no statistical evidence whatsoever and argue that it matters despite no academic or other reputable researcher/analyst endorsing the take. This graph shows that his hypothesis is false. It is no matter if a much more complicated hypothesis that he has not proposed could be true (although I doubt it is).
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kamilah Hauptmann (Today), The Man (Today)
  #420  
Old Today, 07:34 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is online now
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMMDLXXVI
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

Bit about first past the post in parliamentary systems, also frustrating.

In my district the left split itself three ways so we sent a tory to Ottawa with less than 40% of the vote. A stand-up guy who thinks bootstraps cures mental illness.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
  #421  
Old Today, 08:02 AM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMMCCLXXVIII
Images: 11
Default Re: Ultimate Cagefight MMXIX, Democratic Edition

I really wish the Liberals would reform the system.

But it seems they'd rather let the Tories win frequently but get to govern alone, than be in government almost all the time but also almost always have to work with the NDP.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kamilah Hauptmann (Today), The Man (Today)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.48322 seconds with 15 queries