Homosexuality in the Bible

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

Ive answered a whole lot of questions. Let me ask one now. When the video that started this discussion was posted, nobody responded until I did, when I said that it was incorrect to state that the Bible condones homosexual sex. Following my comments there has been a flurry of discussion. If the Bible is simply contradictory manmade rules as you claim, why is it that my comments illicited great controversy, but the initial video did not?

I haven't even watched the video. I've read your comments, and responded to them. Were you planning to meet my points?

[australian]

Originally Posted by davidm

Great. So then why should a Christian condemn it?

Could you please quote these passages, along with the relevant context?

davidm, the second section of this quote partially answers your first question in this quote. For the remainder of the answer, you would be best to visit the website I referred to earlier.

In answer to your request that I quote the passages, im going to decline, sorry. You are able to look up these passages by visiting http://www.biblegateway.com/ for example, and entering the references I gave you into the search box in the top left of the screen.

[LadyShea]

If the Bible is simply contradictory manmade rules as you claim, why is it that my comments illicited great controversy, but the initial video did not?

Why did you choose to address the video which was originally posted to the author of the (now deleted) essay, in the comments section of that essay, and meant to further discussion of that essay? Because you saw something you wanted to respond to, right?

I haven't watched the video either, I saw your posts and chose to engage them...this being a discussion forum and all. There's no "great controversy" here, lol. We are discussing.

[australian]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Christianity is confusing and complex and relationship discussions are irrelevant except where you think homosexuality is condemned? That's a giant weasel, right there.

I didnt say Christianity is confusing. I recall I said it was complicated. And who said relationship discussions are irrelevant? What I said was that this thread was about whether the Bible condones homosexual sex for Christians, as per the video that kicked this off, and that it's best we not diverge from that topic.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by australian

I didnt say Christianity is confusing. I recall I said it was complicated.

My bad, your exact words were "not simple". I apologize, so strike confusing and stick with complex, which I also stated, see there?

And who said relationship discussions are irrelevant?

You introduced the language of "acceptable relationship models" then when I mentioned polygamy as seemingly an example of an acceptable relationship model, you suddenly preferred to stick to the topic of homosexuality.

What I said was that this thread was about whether the Bible condones homosexual sex for Christians, as per the video that kicked this off, and that it's best we not diverge from that topic.

Then stop talking about acceptable relationship models, only to then declare that discussion of Biblical relationship models are off topic.

Originally Posted by australian

Nowhere does Jesus explicitly give the okay for multiple wives, and indeed there is at least one passage in the New Testament that indicates that more than one wife is not a good thing. Again, I regret that Christianity is not simple. As far as Im aware (Im not actually a graduate of a Bible school) polygamy was not outlawed for the Jews of David's time. That policy only came in later, and the doctrine of Christians not having more than one wife is likely based on the New Testament, rather than Old Testament teachings.

I hope we can keep this thread centred on the issue of homosexuality though, which consistently from Old Testament to New Testament, is illustrated as outside of acceptable relationship models for Christians.

[australian]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

So the answer to your question is yes, David engaged in such sin without apparent relevant reprimand in the scriptures! Absolutely!

Ah, so you are saying that the affair and the killing were not reprimanded? I see now. Im much more familiar with the New Testament than the Old, and Im not even familiar with whether David did have an affair with Bathsheba and kill Uriah. But Im willing to take your word for it, and im willing to believe that it was not condemned. Ok, I concede that one to you. Yes, perhaps my point about reprimand, was flawed. But none the less, despite the Old Testament presenting David and Jonathan as very close, lets remember that it still does not state that they had sex. Whether they engaged homosexual sex is just conjecture. There are many other passages in the Bible that are more clear on the topic of homosexuality.

[LadyShea]

Paul certainly seemed to believe they had a perverse relationship.

[LadyShea]

NM, David was reprimanded for the Bathsheba affair

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

davidm, the second section of this quote partially answers your first question in this quote. For the remainder of the answer, you would be best to visit the website I referred to earlier.

In answer to your request that I quote the passages, im going to decline, sorry. You are able to look up these passages by visiting BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. for example, and entering the references I gave you into the search box in the top left of the screen.

I'm really not interested in prowling through your silly blog for these answers. Either put up or shut up.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Why did you choose to address the video which was originally posted to the author of the (now deleted) essay,

Speaking of Doc X, he does not seem to have a private message button. Did he really leave?

[australian]

Originally Posted by davidm

What the hell? That is clearly what you said -- that if David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, why, many of the characters in the Bible are presented as flawed individuals.

Im not trying to be confusing on this, honestly! Here's the conversation as I perceive it: You (or someone on here) implied that if David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, this implies that the Bible condones homosexual relationships. I responded, by trying to say that just because a character in the Bible does something, that doesnt mean that their behaviour is sanctioned by god. IE the characters in the Bible other than Jesus sometimes do things that their god told them not to do - that's a flaw. They are not perfect, ie they are flawed/prone to mistakes as we all are. If homosexual sex was not allowed at the time of David and Jonathan, given that they were supposedly god-following individuals, to act homosexually would be a flaw in their characters. I did not mean that homosexuality is inherently flawed, but rather that for a god-follower to sin against their god is a flaw.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

I didnt say Christianity is confusing. I recall I said it was complicated. And who said relationship discussions are irrelevant? What I said was that this thread was about whether the Bible condones homosexual sex for Christians, as per the video that kicked this off, and that it's best we not diverge from that topic.

Yes, of course it's best for you that we not diverge from this topic, because you don't want your hypocrisy and inability to answer simple questions laid bare, right? But as I pointed out, even if we stick to this particular topic, your incoherence is manifest.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by australian

But none the less, despite the Old Testament presenting David and Jonathan as very close, lets remember that it still does not state that they had sex.

According to Saul it sure sounded like they did, although he spoke more from the standpoint of contempt:

30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? ~ 1 Samuel 20:30

Although the rest of the references to their relationship seem to make light of Saul's opinion.

[australian]

Originally Posted by davidm

1. Where in the New Testament does Jesus condemn homosexuality or abortion?

2. Have you given away all your stuff to the poor yet?

3. I know you want to keep the conversation centered on homosexuality, to avoid the charge of obvious inconsistency and hypocrisy in your Christian beliefs and practices, but that won't fly, and, anyhow, even keeping the discussion focused on homosexuality, you have no warrant to say that Jesus condemned homosexuality. Indeed, you have no warrant to say anything about what Jesus actually said, since we don't know what he said as opposed what was put into his mouth by later commentators.

davidm, I just find your point #3 interesting in that you didnt write it in response to the video where the presenter was quoting Jesus. You seem a little selective.

[australian]

Originally Posted by davidm

So, which is it, then? An eye for an eye, or turn the other cheek?

You see, once you embrace the notion that Christianity is more than what Christ (allegedly) said, you have a big self-contradictory mess on your hands. You have a bunch of beliefs that contradict one another. You have the God of the Old Testament preaching hate and the God of the New Testament (allegedly) preaching love. The cognitive dissonance that must ensue from trying to square all these circles is impressive.

Have you given all your stuff to the poor yet?

Again, if the Bible is just "a bunch of beliefs that contradict one another", then why did you not state this in response to the video? Is it that you are comfortable with the Bible when it's interpreted to suit you?

Again, giving all my stuff to the poor is off the topic of a Biblical perspective on homosexual sex.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

davidm, I just find your point #3 interesting in that you didnt write it in response to the video where the presenter was quoting Jesus. You seem a little selective.

I already told you I didn't watch the video. I am addressing what YOU say. Can you answer my questions or not?

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

Again, if the Bible is just "a bunch of beliefs that contradict one another", then why did you not state this in response to the video?

Because, for the third time, I did not watch the video. I don't care about the video. I am responding to what YOU say. Can you answer my questions, or not?

Is it that you are comfortable with the Bible when it's interpreted to suit you?

Er, no. It is YOU who are comfortable with the Bible when it is interpreted to suit YOUR biases. I am merely pointing out the contradictions and hypocrisy in your beliefs, and you can't address these points. Since it's not comfortable for you to give away your stuff to the poor, for instance, you don't want to talk about that.

Again, giving all my stuff to the poor is off the topic of a Biblical perspective on homosexual sex.

LOL, of course it's off topic, because to put it on topic reveals you to be a hypocrite!

[australian]

Originally Posted by erimir

Again, circular. If it's not a sin, then the fact that he wasn't reprimanded is not surprising. You're saying "This part can't be pro-gay, because if it was gay, it would be condemned!"

And btw, I don't care what the Bible says for my personal life. I was just interested in what someone who has a more objective view of the Bible, as a document composed by humans with a messy history, thought about it. You don't fit that description.

Doc X, the person I directed the question to, is someone who is interested in and has spent some time studying the history and interpretation of the Bible, but is an atheist, and therefore has no vested interest in arguing that the Bible says homosexuality is bad. I highly doubt that the person you linked to is dispassionate, considering that he quotes the bigoted Family Research Council (who relies on studies from the discredited Paul Cameron, who was kicked out of the American Psychological Association for his shoddy and biased "studies") as evidence that gays don't, in fact, have the same desire for love that straight people do.

Actually yes, I acknowledge you have a good point - I was using circular reasoning in regards to David and Jonathan, at least to a limited degree. I hadnt thought it through well, and I apologise for that mistake. You are also right that them having children does not rule out bisexuality. But still, I stand by my comment that the question of whether David & Jonathan had homosexual sex is conjecture - we are not told whether they did. There are other scriptures which are much clearer on the topic of homosexual sex.

I should point out that the AFA no longer seem to cite Paul Cameron. I used the search function to find his name on their website. Various references to Camerons resulted, but not a Paul Cameron.

If you are a homosexual, I mean you no harm or ill will. I honestly believe that the Bible refers to homosexual sex as a sin, and I honestly feel bad if I dont stand for what I believe. I dont mean to hurt anyone. My points here are about Christianity, and my assumption is that any homosexuals using this website would not be Christians, so ultimately this isnt about them.

[australian]

Originally Posted by davidm

I haven't even watched the video. I've read your comments, and responded to them. Were you planning to meet my points?

Ive devoted many hours to this thread already today, and sorry Im going to have to limit my time to one topic - what the Bible says about homosexual sex.

[Sock Puppet]

Originally Posted by australian

I should point out that the AFA no longer seem to cite Paul Cameron.

Unfortunately, they most likely still cite the AFA.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by australian

Ive devoted many hours to this thread already today, and sorry Im going to have to limit my time to one topic - what the Bible says about homosexual sex.

I think I see the problem. I gather -- am I right? -- that the person in the video is a Christian who is defending gay sex from a Christian perspective.

But, see, I'm not a Christian. It's not my problem that the Bible is a mishmash of self-contradictory nonsense. That's your problem.

That's why anyone is free to cherry-pick whatever they want from the Bible, and selectively interpret it. You don't like gays, so the Bible is against gays. You DO like your money and property, so you don't want to talk about Jesus telling you to give all your stuff to the poor. That's off topic!

Understood!

[LadyShea]

John 8:11 , the aftermath of the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" episode where Jesus refuses to condemn the adulteress because the men didn't condemn her. What's that got to do with homosexuality?

Mat 19 “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So, that seems to me to also give any number of people a pass from the "one man and one woman" thing, because the message was not meant for or given to them. Why should we not include homosexuals in the "not everyone"? Unless you have another interpretation of whom Jesus was excusing from acceptance and to whom the word was given. He wasn't at all explicit.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

John 8:11 , the aftermath of the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" episode where Jesus refuses to condemn the adulteress because the men didn't condemn her. What's that got to do with homosexuality?

Yes, thanks LS, let's trot out these quotes that australian won't provide, and see what they have to do with teh gay!

[LadyShea]

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

What about that indicates that "Jesus considered a having a heterosexual spouse to be the sole relationship model for his followers"

[davidm]

Yep, not seeing any anti-gay stuff there, either. I mean, these are your selected quotes, australian. Care to explicate them for us?

Also, note that Jesus tells you to "hate father and mother." Really? How does that square with the Old Testament injunction to honor your mother and father?



The bible, it's almost as good as the works of Seymour Lessans!