Nutshelling the Creation Evolution debates

[Radathser]

You may not need evidence to, "know," whatever it is you claim to, "know. But in order to, "win," an argument, or at least get your point across effectively, we kind of need that whole, "evidence," deal.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by Radathser

You may not need evidence to, "know," whatever it is you claim to, "know. But in order to, "win," an argument,

Not interested.

or at least get your point across effectively, we kind of need that whole, "evidence," deal.

As I said to FM, if you're the kind of person who can realize things for himself rather than merely absorb information from pedgogues, you already have the evidence. If not, there can never be a meeting of the minds between you and me. <shrug>

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by yguy

[If (some gibberish), then] there can never be a meeting of the minds between you and me.

Take that as a compliment.

[Radathser]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

Take that as a compliment.

[LadyShea]

So yguy, what I am concluding from what you have said, is that you perceive the presence of spirits as well as their intent -just as one might perceive negative intent if they saw a man lurking about-, but not with your physical senses?

Am I reading you correctly?

[yguy]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

So yguy, what I am concluding from what you have said, is that you perceive the presence of [some evil] spirits as well as their intent -just as one might perceive negative intent if they saw a man lurking about-, but not with your physical senses?

Am I reading you correctly?

As amended, yes.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by yguy

As amended, yes.

Okay so you perceive some evil spirits. May I ask how this perception manifests? Is it a physical feeling (like tingling), or a hunch, or do you get some kind of clear vision? How do/did you determine it wasn't your imagination?

As you must know, this relaying of subjective experience is not really convincing to those who have not had similar experiences...but it's interesting nonetheless.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Okay so you perceive some evil spirits. May I ask how this perception manifests? Is it a physical feeling (like tingling), or a hunch, or do you get some kind of clear vision?

It doesn't happen often. I'll describe one occurrence that happened many years ago: I was either asleep or partway between sleep and wakefulness. I was not conscious of my physical body. I became aware of something immediately behind me, sucking on my soul. I was afraid to turn around and look, but I did anyway, whereupon it took off like a bat out of (or in this case back to) Hell. I got only the briefest glimpse of it, not enough to say what form it might have had.

How do/did you determine it wasn't your imagination?

How do you determine anything you perceive isn't your imagination?

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by yguy

It doesn't happen often. I'll describe one occurrence that happened many years ago: I was either asleep or partway between sleep and wakefulness. I was not conscious of my physical body. I became aware of something immediately behind me, sucking on my soul. I was afraid to turn around and look, but I did anyway, whereupon it took off like a bat out of (or in this case back to) Hell. I got only the briefest glimpse of it, not enough to say what form it might have had.

Sounds like a hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucination to me. This type of experience is very common in some people, and even runs in families. I believe this natural phenomena explains a number of supernatural experiences like succubus attacks, and alien abductions

Here's some info:
Hypnagogic hallucinations
Sleep Paralysis Page
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/169/4/459
hypnagogic state

How do you determine anything you perceive isn't your imagination?

Usually because others perceive it in a similar way, and/or it can be perceived with multiple senses, and/or the perception is consistent.

If I clearly perceive a red car in my driveway on a regular basis (I saw it, touched it, or parked it there myself for example)...but nobody else could see it, touch it, or drive it, or if it was red one day, blue the next, and yellow the next, or turned from a car to an airplane every other hour (in other words inconsistent) I would think maybe it was my imagination.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Sounds like a hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucination to me.

It wasn't a hallucination of any stripe.

Usually because others perceive it in a similar way, and/or it can be perceived with multiple senses, and/or the perception is consistent.

So those are the only ways you have of knowing you perceive accurately?

If I clearly perceive a red car in my driveway on a regular basis (I saw it, touched it, or parked it there myself for example)...but nobody else could see it, touch it, or drive it, or if it was red one day, blue the next, and yellow the next, or turned from a car to an airplane every other hour (in other words inconsistent) I would think maybe it was my imagination.

Again you equivocate. Why would any of that evidence necessarily compel you to conclude you were hallucinating? Or if they wouldn't, why not?

[Radathser]

I think by saying that, yGuy, you are clearly a crackpot.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

If I clearly perceive a red car in my driveway on a regular basis (I saw it, touched it, or parked it there myself for example)...but nobody else could see it, touch it, or drive it, or if it was red one day, blue the next, and yellow the next, or turned from a car to an airplane every other hour (in other words inconsistent) I would think maybe it was my imagination.

Originally Posted by yguy

Again you equivocate. Why would any of that evidence necessarily compel you to conclude you were hallucinating? Or if they wouldn't, why not?

I didn't say it would necessarily compel me to conclude I was hallucinating. It said "I would think maybe it was my imagination"

I would think that simply because in my 38 years of experience with my perceptions of reality, such things have not occurred. So far, red cars in my driveway are apparent to others and do not change into blue cars or airplanes. If that suddenly changed there would be a number of possibilities, the two that stick out for me are

1. I am hallucinating and therefore there must be something different in my brain like illness or injury

or

2. The apparent laws of the Universe and reality, that have been consistent for me all this time, have suddenly changed.

Since I know of cases where illness or injury have caused people to hallucinate, but have not yet heard any reports of the fabric of reality altering, I would go with option 1.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I didn't say it would necessarily compel me to conclude I was hallucinating. It said "I would think maybe it was my imagination"

I would think that simply because in my 38 years of experience with my perceptions of reality, such things have not occurred. So far, red cars in my driveway are apparent to others and do not change into blue cars or airplanes. If that suddenly changed there would be a number of possibilities, the two that stick out for me are

1. I am hallucinating and therefore there must be something different in my brain like illness or injury

or

2. The apparent laws of the Universe and reality, that have been consistent for me all this time, have suddenly changed.

There's another possibility which is more plausible than #2 and which overlaps with #1: some entity is projecting the illusion, either by Star Trek style holography or by direct manipulation of your brain, and your neighbors are all in on the deception.

Since I know of cases where illness or injury have caused people to hallucinate, but have not yet heard any reports of the fabric of reality altering, I would go with option 1.

If my option were correct, such a decision would leave you just as deceived as if you had believed the car turned into a plane, because you'd think there was no intent on the part of anyone else to deceive you when in fact there was.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by yguy

There's another possibility which is more plausible than #2 and which overlaps with #1: some entity is projecting the illusion, either by Star Trek style holography or by direct manipulation of your brain, and your neighbors are all in on the deception.

Yikes! Yguy you are brilliant, but unfortunately for you, you have discovered the network of alien infiltration so now you will be neutralized. I wouldn't go to sleep if I were you.