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  #26  
Old 12-31-2004, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Oh, yeah. A semiautomatic firing eight rounds consisting of cut-off and reamed Winchester .284 cartridges with 300 grain .475 caliber bullets with impressive ballistics for a handgun, 1900 fps muzzle velocity and 1900 lbs/ft muzzle energy. Compare that to the legendary .44 Magnum at 1300 and 1210 respectively. I just don't currently have a spare $3500 to buy one.
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  #27  
Old 12-31-2004, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

OK :toad: has to hop in here, although he knows not why. This damned arguement tends to go on and on and on .. From my point of view it appears that many Americans somehow equate gun ownership with freedom, manliness and in many cases godliness.

Does any one of you ever stop to realize the for as long as I can remember the US has been the most violent society among the so-called western nations, until recently dethroned from that dubious honour by the Brazilians?

Oh yup yup, one can just as easily be killed by knives sticks, huge wads of bubble gum or perhaps even overly enthusiastic French kissing ..... damn those cheese eaters. The point is that most people in the US that are killed are not killed by "criminals" so to speak, but rather by family members who have been drinking to excess, and whatcha know ..... the gun just happened to be there.

There is too much fudging of the arguments for the fucking cherished right to bear arms as I see it. Yes rifles, shotguns are often a necessity in rural areas, but what the fuck are handguns for, or machine guns? And why is there any need whatsoever for even rifles or shotguns in the cities. If there were not so guns were not allowed to be sold like loaves of bread then the police would not have to be armed to the teeth.

As mentioned earlier by Farren people are shooting their own children. People seeking help when their car breaks down are shot merely because they knocked on some drunken asshole's door late at night. No I don't exaggerate. In the small city were I live there is a young widow who was sitting in their broken -down car when her husband was shot. They were trying to come back home from a vacation in Florida.

Several years back a friend of mine, a doctor, decided to move to Houston Texas because the money was much better. That in itself kinda pissed me off as he was far from poor and like every other doctor the taxpayers/citizens had paid for most of his education. But I digress. I''m an expert in the field of digression. Before three years had past my friend was back practicing in Toronto because he could not stand taking his turns in the emergency wards as gunshot victim s rolled in all too fucking frequently .... many of them children e\whose crime was the need to pee in the middle of the night, and so half drunk dad, the macho man, preached under the pillow and grabbed the gun. Then there were the other members of families shot by their spouses , and when the drunk sobered up he (and yes its usually a he) could not even remember shooting anyone.

I do not expect this little screed to do other than elicit opposition from most Americans here because you live in forest and thus cannot see the trees. I'll just stop here because I've had this discussion many times for forty or so years, and for what? perhaps because I'm a masochist. And yes I was raised on a farm.

Now carry on.
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  #28  
Old 12-31-2004, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
Oh, yeah. A semiautomatic firing eight rounds consisting of cut-off and reamed Winchester .284 cartridges with 300 grain .475 caliber bullets with impressive ballistics for a handgun, 1900 fps muzzle velocity and 1900 lbs/ft muzzle energy. Compare that to the legendary .44 Magnum at 1300 and 1210 respectively. I just don't currently have a spare $3500 to buy one.
Let me add: nor would I even if I had the money. I've got a college-bound lass in a year and a half and need to put back a bundle before August of 2006. Buying expensive guns never have and still don't fit into the picture. But, hey, a macho gun-loving animal-killing Merkin can dream, darnit.

Children get run over by their own parent's cars by accident and people get hit and killed by cars when they're walking to get help for their car that is broken down on the freeway, and drunken drivers kill people by the hundreds every damn day. Much like guns, cars are just plain dangerous in normal every day use, but hardly anyone is advocating banning cars for that reason.

Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with Farren or Socratoad about the end result, a society where people are not killing each other, only about how we get there. Guns are just the tool of choice for violence, but only a tool. It is the violent tendencies within the human species that needs to be eradicated. How do you do that?
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  #29  
Old 12-31-2004, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Hi warrenly, I really don't want to get too far into why humans and especially some societies more than others seem to be almost addicted to violence. Especially because the New year is upon us and I want to remain in the mellow reflective mood I'm in.

I could go into a long rant about the american fascination with violence. Even the way you train your soldiers. But I'm quite afraid that any listing of what I see as the pathologies present in American culture would tend to make me appear as an rabid anti-American. I assure you such is not the case as in general I love Americans. The love of my life. The woman I was married to for twenty years until her death was an American..

Every society, certainly mine, has its pathologies, however have you ecer stopped to wonder why your next door neighbour has always had a much lower violent crime rate than in your own nation? The gap is lowering though as your culture via economic and Hollywood produced violence prone has become rather smothering in its reach.

As I young man who when going to Europe for the first time could not help but notice that in France sex was portrayed rather openly in their movies while violence was quite strictly controlled. Oh yes even the sex scenes were done in a sensual non-violent manner.

Just a couple of thoughts on th subject. As I mentioned above I really don't wish at this time to get into an in depth discussion about the gun issue as in my experience it can, and usually does become very heated. Plus my mind is somewhere in South East Asia. All I am really able to see is the faces of frightened children.

Maybe after some time has passed I might have something worthwhile to add to this never-ending discussion.
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  #30  
Old 12-31-2004, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratoad
Every society, certainly mine, has its pathologies, however have you ecer stopped to wonder why your next door neighbour has always had a much lower violent crime rate than in your own nation?
Canada? Uh, because there's only about 30 million people in a country with almost twice the land area? Or, because until relatively recently there was a relatively homogeneous population there? Or, because Canada didn't win its independence by armed revolution or fight a civil war to keep it together?

Quote:
The gap is lowering though as your culture via economic and Hollywood produced violence prone has become rather smothering in its reach.
I've been blaming a lot of things on the proliferation of MTV and American culture via satellite and cable television such as the ruination of small town American culture, I might as well say it is ruining other cultures now.

Quote:
As I young man who when going to Europe for the first time could not help but notice that in France sex was portrayed rather openly in their movies while violence was quite strictly controlled. Oh yes even the sex scenes were done in a sensual non-violent manner.
I'd much rather television portrayed sex and sensuality rather than chase scenes and violence, but the prudes of America are aghast at the sight of a nipple yet don't think a thing about people breaking each others bones either side of the halftime nipple show. Admittedly, as a whole, we Americans are fuuuu-uuuucked up, the most recent election shows just how bad off we are.

Quote:
Just a couple of thoughts on th subject. As I mentioned above I really don't wish at this time to get into an in depth discussion about the gun issue as in my experience it can, and usually does become very heated.
Thanks for sharing what you have. You won't find heated and warrenly in the same thread, i can't handle the stress. An amicable discussion about Americans love for guns, I can do, but I'm not a radical by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:
Plus my mind is somewhere in South East Asia. All I am really able to see is the faces of frightened children.
I'm keeping up with all that as well. I am frustrated there isn't much I can do for them here.

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Maybe after some time has passed I might have something worthwhile to add to this never-ending discussion.
You've added food for thought already. Socratoad, zap a few flies with your tongue, kick back on the lilypad and take it easy.
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  #31  
Old 01-01-2005, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

This thread makes me so happy I live in Australia.
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  #32  
Old 01-01-2005, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

I said quite a lot against the proliferation of guns in America in this thread on the assault rifle ban, but honestly as a result of that thread (and a similar one at IIDB) I'm less certain of my views than I was.
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  #33  
Old 01-01-2005, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

VM, I just read some of the neverending gun debate on the thread you listed above. Its really all so damned wearying. Although I disagree with the pro-gun bunch profoundly I kinda miss Dantonac. Where did he go?
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  #34  
Old 01-01-2005, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratoad
VM, I just read some of the neverending gun debate on the thread you listed above. Its really all so damned wearying. Although I disagree with the pro-gun bunch profoundly I kinda miss Dantonac. Where did he go?
He left, Toad, as he announced here. But just to forewarn you, I'm afraid you aren't going to find that discussion any more uplifting than the one on gun control.
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  #35  
Old 01-01-2005, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

I have never owned a gun and I have no experience using guns. But I want to keep gun ownership as free as possible. Any group of people who do not own guns is vulnerable. After the election, a lot of heartbroken Kerry-voters talked of civil war, but such a prospect was made even more hopeless by the fact that the conservatives are armed to the teeth along with the US military, and the liberals are as defenseless as a cooked turkey dinner on Thanksgiving day. If a tyrannical US Commander-in-Chief launched an effective propaganda campaign directed at conservatives to incarcerate, deport or kill all the liberals in America, there would be nobody and nothing to stop them.
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  #36  
Old 01-01-2005, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratoad
VM, I just read some of the never ending gun debate on the thread you listed above. Its really all so damned wearying. Although I disagree with the pro-gun bunch profoundly I kinda miss Dantonac. Where did he go?
He left, Toad, as he announced here. But just to forewarn you, I'm afraid you aren't going to find that discussion any more uplifting than the one on gun control.

OH gees, I had no idea. I missed that very rough bit of drama. I crossed swords several times with Dave when I first came on this board and jumped to the defense of Adora during one particular attack, but over time I thought I saw a glimmer of light showing through someone I thought was rather troubled. And that is what I meant by kinda missing him. I had thought that by getting to know him a little better I might actually come to understand just what was bothering him so much about so many things.

Underneath this often sarcastic curmudgeonly exterior I really do dislike disharmony and feel bad when someone lashes out because they themselves are hurting

However seeing as I was not present during all that nastiness I will drop this now. In closing, I can quite understand Beth's reaction considering her own painful experiences.

Sometimes methinks some misfortunes and pain could be avoided if only someone can keep cool enough to try to understand and reach out a helping hand. Often what we lash out at are the symptoms, not the actions.

But then what the hell do I know. :(
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  #37  
Old 01-01-2005, 02:07 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Socratoad...if i may digress...happy new year and i find you to be a very intelligent and excellent writer. thanks . i am happy to "know" you.
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  #38  
Old 01-01-2005, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

And a very Happy New year to you too Lady Cop, and may the new year bring a little more serenity into the lives of all of us.. When all is said and done that is all anyone needs, and perhaps even craves. Even those who are so damaged that they are both unable to articulate or understand the reasons for their dissatisfactions and resentments,

And so the mouthy :toad: hops down off his soapbox.

PS: I'm your fan as well
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  #39  
Old 01-01-2005, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Never fired a gun in my life and have very little desire to do so. I realize lots of people are into keeping and firing guns, and I think it's a respectable hobby - for the most part. Some people are utter fanatics and my questioning of their psychological balance increases in proportion to the fanaticism. Having said that most of the gun owners I know or have known were extremely responsible and respectful of their weapon's killing power.

I'm fairly persuaded that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms, as opposed to the collective right argument that has been put forth in some fairly lofty judicial circles, but within reason. Like any constitutional right, there are limits. What those limits are is obviously where the debate is. I suspect even Larry Pratt agrees, for example, that the government can restrict completely a convicted felon's right to keep and bear arms.

I think conceal carry laws are fucking nuts. I don't care for the idea that the slob in front of me at the Pick 'N' Save is carrying a concealed handgun, but I also realize that that's an unfortunate fact of life in most of America. I don't live in a gated community either. I live in a fairly rough part of Milwaukee but I don't feel any need to walk around armed. Most of the shooting that goes on in public here consists of scumbags shooting other scumbags.
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  #40  
Old 01-01-2005, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

I'd repeat sentiments already mentioned a couple of times in that I'm glad I don't live in the U.S. :P

I remember having a long debate about this somewhere ages ago. I remember two major points coming out of it one for me, one against me (I was anti-guns :P )

The one for me which wasn't refuted terribly well was that if your government was prepared to pump the same amount of money into anti-gun laws as it was into wars of dubious justification abroad, you'd probably remove the easy availability of firearms - especially assault weapons - in a few years.

The point against me which I did a fairly horrible job of refuting was that the majority of citizens prefer to have weapons easily available. Mostly - as someone mentioned already - because they saw it as an extension of their liberty, citing that amendment (the 2nd?) in the Bill of Rights countless times. But also, by and large, because they felt safer with owning a weapon. This was what I tried - and failed - at refuting, though I still think it's the wrong way of thinking about safety. It's like throwing more landmines down to protect yourself from the enemy. It might work, but it also screws you over in the long-run.

It's difficult, however, to convince people who constantly feel immediate threats (which I do not) that safety can be better acheived by throwing down what they see as their only protection. I have to concede that point.
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  #41  
Old 01-01-2005, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

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Originally Posted by justaman
The one for me which wasn't refuted terribly well was that if your government was prepared to pump the same amount of money into anti-gun laws as it was into wars of dubious justification abroad, you'd probably remove the easy availability of firearms - especially assault weapons - in a few years.
Yes they could, but "our" government is not likely to do that in the current political landscape, whether or not there might be a majority that favor at least some degree of gun control. It isn't that the NRA is a more powerful lobby than the gun control one, it is to which group the politicians are more likely to listen. The ones in power now are not inclined to lean toward gun control unless their core constituency also leans in that direction. Since their core is extreme right-wing, it just isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future. Plus, if you look at the most recent election, our "war president" and his pro-war, pro-gun policies just got confirmed by a majority of the voters.
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  #42  
Old 01-01-2005, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
Yes they could, but "our" government is not likely to do that in the current political landscape, whether or not there might be a majority that favor at least some degree of gun control. It isn't that the NRA is a more powerful lobby than the gun control one, it is to which group the politicians are more likely to listen. The ones in power now are not inclined to lean toward gun control unless their core constituency also leans in that direction. Since their core is extreme right-wing, it just isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future. Plus, if you look at the most recent election, our "war president" and his pro-war, pro-gun policies just got confirmed by a majority of the voters.
I couldn't agree more.
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  #43  
Old 01-01-2005, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with Farren or Socratoad about the end result, a society where people are not killing each other, only about how we get there. Guns are just the tool of choice for violence, but only a tool. It is the violent tendencies within the human species that needs to be eradicated. How do you do that?
Shoot them all? :(
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  #44  
Old 01-01-2005, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with Farren or Socratoad about the end result, a society where people are not killing each other, only about how we get there. Guns are just the tool of choice for violence, but only a tool. It is the violent tendencies within the human species that needs to be eradicated. How do you do that?
Shoot them all? :(
:yup:
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  #45  
Old 01-01-2005, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP
Shoot them all? :(
:yup:
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Fight! Fight! :catfight:

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:gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin: :gatlin:
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  #46  
Old 01-01-2005, 08:17 PM
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:hide: If you two don't stop immediately I'm gonna come out from unner this chair and hit you with my purse.
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Old 01-01-2005, 08:32 PM
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  #48  
Old 01-01-2005, 08:45 PM
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Old 01-01-2005, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Well for whatever anecdotal evidence is worth I've lived in like 10 cities across four states in my 36 years of life in America, and I have never been in a situation where I required a firearm to protect myself. So the argument that Americans need guns to feel safe rings pretty hollow to me.

It does seem self-evident to me that there would be an exponential increase in gun related violence as the number of guns increases, but that doesn't seem to be the case in other countries (such as Switzerland) where gun ownership is widespread.

And like Farren, it seems to me that the ease with which critical/fatal injuries can be dealt out with guns makes them substantially different than other weapons/machines.

I'm still on the fence I think, but I also agree with Scarlatti that Constitutional rights can and should be limited when appropriate, including the second amendment.
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Old 01-01-2005, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: ~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
Well for whatever anecdotal evidence is worth I've lived in like 10 cities across four states in my 36 years of life in America, and I have never been in a situation where I required a firearm to protect myself.
Neither have I, but that doesn't mean I don't feel safer having one if it ever became necessary.

Quote:
So the argument that Americans need guns to feel safe rings pretty hollow to me.
Remind yourself that you thought that if the situation does come up. But, perhaps you can subdue your attacker with your sharp wit. :D
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