Alternative medicine

[godfry n. glad]

I'm curious as to attitudes about alternative medicines amongst this group.

I rely upon traditional medical care. I do find it an often pharmaceutical approach to organic problems. As for depression, as far as I'm concerned, pharmacueticals does it; I've been down that road. I'm on lifetime meds now with hypertension and diabetes, so access to inexpensive pharmaceuticals is a personal issue to me. Because of it, early retirement is pretty much out of the picture for me. I don't like how traditional (or allopathic, for the trendy types) docs treat back strain (rest and muscle relaxants) when I can get perfectly good and immediate relief treatment from my chiropractor. Cheaper, too. The chiropractor is the traditional "spine only" practice.

I switched physicians because my physician of the time considered chiropractic to be "quackery". That, and he was publicly opposed to the "Death with Dignity" law.

And yet... I'm not sold on homeopathic methods at all. It seems so...sympathetic magic stuff. I can't believe some of the treatments that have been recommended to friends. And my good friend and massage therapist is a practicing naturopathic physician.

I'm not sold on acupuncture, either. I haven't used it, but my wife tried it for smoking cessation and it was a dead waste of time and money.

An e-gram can't tell you anything other than that you're gullible to even take one.

Herbs/Chinese medicine....how's that differ from naturopathic?

What are your personal experiences?

I've been very, very lucky in the physician I have now. Family physician MD.

And massage is a wondrous curative. For body and mind.


godfry

[Roland98]

Depends on how you define "alternative medicine," I guess. I'll certainly agree that Western medical practioners don't know everything, and that there's more to discover, and it's possible some "unorthodox" methods may be helpful, but by and large, I think most of the "alternative" medicine I'm familiar with is quackery.

[Dingfod]

My innate skepticism which led me to not believing in deities extends to most of that hooey too.

[viscousmemories]

I have never tried any alternative medicines or treatments, including chiropractic. I've read a lot of threads on various fora where chiropractic was lambasted pretty thoroughly as quackery. Almost everyone said the adjustments are fine, but the mysticism about energies and all that is bunk.

The skeptics from JREF and SC go on about the evils of homeopathy all the time, but I don't really read those threads 'cause it's not really something I'm very interested in. I don't really believe in Celestial Seasonings teas, either. I have all these different kinds: Tension Tamer, Throat Soother, etc. but I don't really believe there's any difference but taste.

[Ymir's blood]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

And yet... I'm not sold on homeopathic methods at all. It seems so...sympathetic magic stuff. I can't believe some of the treatments that have been recommended to friends. And my good friend and massage therapist is a practicing naturopathic physician.

As I understand it, many or most homeopathic remedies are so diluted that they don't contain any measurable amount of the supposed ingredient. Even if they did, the idea is still essentially the same as sympathetic magic, like cures like, as it were. That doesn't prove that any given 'remedy' is false, of course. "A blind squirrel..."

The same goes for the rest of 'alternative medicine' : show me evidence for the claim and I'll consider it. Otherwise, I'll assume it's a scam.

[godfry n. glad]

Well, like I said, I swear by chiropractic. My chiropractor does nothing but adjustments. He lays no woo-woo down on me at all. All his advice is damned reasonable. Usually exercise and stretches. The thing is, instead of laying around on the couch for a week, trippin' on muscle relaxants, waiting for my back to get better, I just wait 'til I can get in to see him, and adjustment is done, the pain is gone or minimized so I can rest, without pharmaceuticals. He's like a physical therapist with a doctorate. How's that quackery?

As for woo-woo like "wear this gem on you left arm at night when you sleep after drinking an infusion of hysop and nettles in the light of the full moon." Nope...that's quackery.

Is there a difference between a naturopath and a homeopath? I've never been to either.

You do realize, don't you, that there is a relationship? To traditional medicine, that is. And that the home-remedy type medicines the alternative medicine types have been pumping as panacea for centuries...well, some of them have been valid. Aspirin is an excellent example.

Also, keep in mind that a mere two centuries ago, most surgeons were barbers and physicians were blood-letters.

What about acupuncture? I thought that had a fair amount of evidence.

Hypnotism?

Electro-convulsive therapy?

Laying on of hands?

Prayer?

Psychotherapy?




godfry

[The Lone Ranger]

Certainly, "traditional" medicine doesn't know everything.

It's also true that some "folk remedies" actually have a real basis behind them. As has already been pointed out, for instance, asprin. For centuries, people used to chew on willow bark to relieve pain, or they used willow bark as an ingredient in pain-relief "medicines." The thing is, willow bark contains salicylic acid, the basic building block of modern asprin.

However, most folk remedies have turned out to be bunk when properly tested.

One should keep in mind that most people will recover on their own from a given ailment. So, at best most "alternative" therapies are nothing more than placeboes. The mere fact that you feel like you're doing something to "treat" your ailment can make you feel better, even if the treatment itself has no benefit whatsoever.

But some "alternative" therapies are downright dangerous. I'm also more than a little concerned that some pushers of "alternative" therapies urge their patients to avoid "traditional" medicine. How many people have died from easily-treatable problems because they went to some quack instead of a real physician?

Some people claim that "alternative" therapies are preferable to modern medicine because they're based on "centuries of accumulated wisdom," and they're "holistic" in nature, instead of being based on "reductionistic science." The best response to this attitude I ever read was from a cancer survivor who caustically wrote:

Why is it that in China, India, and all those other places with "centuries of accumulated medical wisdom," someone with an advanced case of cancer had the life expectancy of a suicidal World War I pilot -- until non-holistic, reductionist Western medicine that focuses on the patient's symptoms rather than "the whole person" was introduced?

A good chiropractor does nothing for you that a good physical therapist couldn't. A bad chiropractor can kill you. Literally! I'd have to look it up, but there was a study published not long ago which provided convincing evidence that cervical manipulations performed by chiropractors can considerably increase your risk of stroke.


Homeopathy is bunk, pure and simple. The "theory" behind it is ludicrous, and every time it has been properly tested, it has failed utterly. It's only possible benefit is the placebo effect.


Cheers,

Michael

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Hypnotism?

My mom teaches hypnosis as a relaxation technique for people prone to anxiety and panic disorders in her practice. Does that make it an alternative medicine? It doesn't cure anything, after all; it just gives you a behavioral tool to get your shit together before you hyperventilate.

I've also seen some studies about hypnosis used in the place of pain-killers or even local anesthesia to treat pain, but again, I don't know if that makes it an alternative medicine since there's no claim of cure.

[Godless Dave]

"Alternative medicine" is too broad a category to judge the whole thing, and "western" vs. "alternative" medicine is a false dichotomy.

Homeopathy: bunk.

Herbal remedies: some bunk, some not. Plants contain chemicals. Drugs are made of chemicals. There's no mystery here. Drinking ephedra tea can help with nasal congestion because it contains ephedrine. It's not magic, it's chemistry. I drink a Traditional Medicinals tea called throat coat. It works because it contains licorice root. Licorice soothes the throat. I also tried one of their teas called something like "weightless". It tasted like cranberries. I read the ingredients, and sure it enough it contains cranberries. Cranberry juice is a diaretic. Not magic, chemistry.

Chiropractic: I don't know enough about it to make a judgement, but I do know pressure on various parts of my spine can temporarily relieve back pain. The physical therapist my health plan sent me to sucked, so I'll probably try a chiropractor next time. I would never see a chiropractor to treat asthma, though, which I've heard of people doing. But I would consider seeing one for sinus pain. Not magic, pressure.

Aromatherapy: overstatement of the fact that certain smells help some people relax.

The false dichotomy in the way the issue(s) is presented really bothers me. I blame drug companies and hippies.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

A good chiropractor does nothing for you that a good physical therapist couldn't. A bad chiropractor can kill you. Literally! I'd have to look it up, but there was a study published not long ago which provided convincing evidence that cervical manipulations performed by chiropractors can considerably increase your risk of stroke.

And a bad physical therapist can kill or maim you as well. Even a well-trained physican can kill or maim. I, for example, am the victim of a "good" physician (the experienced and highly respected department chairman at a major teaching hospital) whose self-assurance outweighed his aptitude as a physician and surgeon.

And yes, I'd love it if you'd find the bibliographic citation of the study to which you refer.

godfry

[Scotty]

This is a good article on the neck manipulations:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html

-Scott

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Scotty

This is a good article on the neck manipulations:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html

-Scott

Okay have I mentioned that ever since I got that stiff neck right before moving here to Dallas (which still hasn't completely gone away) I've been anxious about the possibility of getting a stroke from twisting my neck the wrong way? I'd like to go back to 10 minutes ago when I thought I was just being outrageously paranoid and fearing an impossible occurrence, please.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Okay have I mentioned that ever since I got that stiff neck right before moving here to Dallas (which still hasn't completely gone away) I've been anxious about the possibility of getting a stroke from twisting my neck the wrong way? I'd like to go back to 10 minutes ago when I thought I was just being outrageously paranoid and fearing an impossible occurrence, please.

Looks like muscle relaxers and a week on the couch for you

-Scott

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Scotty

Looks like muscle relaxers and a week on the couch for you

-Scott

Heh. I wish I could afford to go to a doctor for a scrip. Can I just use this circumstance to rationalize raiding the liquor cabinet? Huh? Please?

[Scotty]

Bad VM, BAD, off the wagon, OFF! Wait, ON the WAGON, come on boy, you can do it!

-Scott

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Scotty

Looks like muscle relaxers and a week on the couch for you

-Scott

Gee...Are you sure? Have you got all the evidence on how many patients die under the care of a physician who misdiagnosed or misprescribed, or even prescribed something without knowing how it would affect the specific individual? What are those figures?

Just for your edification, my chiropractor did notify me of the risk. However, my otorhinolaryngologist informed me that my ear surgery had an 85% chance of improving my hearing and a 15% chance of having no influence at all. When I asked whether that meant there was no chance of further damaging my hearing due to the surgery he recommended (and actually did), his response was to tell me that such risk was "negligible". On that advice, I went ahead with the surgery. Result: I am now required to wear a hearing aid (where I was not before) and the responsible surgeon and medical center have refused to make good on the damage....they, in my book, are the quacks. They wittingly violated the Hippocratic Oath and because my grievance was not worth enough to an attorney and they had miminized their exposure by having me sign a waiver (under the understanding that there was "neglible" chance of a negative outcome). And they are representatives of the "traditional" medicine community.

There exists a built in motivator for traditional physicians to undertake "unnecessary" surgeries to bilk insurance companies and pad their pockets. The whole history of traditional medicine and their approach to hysterectomies and women's health issues is a history of quackery.

The history of traditional medicine's approach to pharmaceutical treatment of adolescents and children is filled with quackery (in this case prescribing without guidelines because there were no guidelines...no research had been done on childre and their reactions to pharmaceuticals...aspirin again a good example.)

Additionally, the hospital sector in the United States is currently under scrutiny for the excessive number of mistaken procedures performed upon unsuspecting patients. The number of these incidents far outnumber the stroke patients who happened to see a chiropractor in the week prior to their incident. (So...is the correlation causation?)

"Traditional medicine" is not without it's practitioners of quackery....all under the guise of undeserved "scientific" support. "Knife-happy" surgeons are at the top of that list as far as I'm concerned.

godfry

[Scotty]

Can't argue with that godfry, you are right, there are bad people everywhere, it seems a shame that people aren't more honest.

For each instance of health related stuff, I have always gotten a second opinion, then researched (unless it was a "right now" type of surgery, like my Mom's aneurysm), but of course that doesn't guarantee anything.

The hysterectomy things you mention hit right to what my wife was just talking about, where they wanted to do one on her, and she refused and got a second opinion (which was to do nothing), and found out later the "Dr." was just doing it to fill his pockets.

It is crap, insurance fraud, money grubbing shitty people that seem to fill every orifice of society. Pun intended (was that a pun?).

Sorry for your bad experience, I hope the most current situation with my sister doesn't have that type of problem (and I tell you, I researched like crazy, and there was a lot of bs out there, including stuff I didn't agree with the Dr. about but the 2nd Dr. did agree, but wanted to do a different style of treatment...hmmm...).

-Scott

[godfry n. glad]

From my side, I admit that there are those amongst the ranks of chiropractic who are frauds and quacks. Any chiropractor who assures that he can treat anything other than spinal/muscle discomfort should be given a wide berth in my estimation.

However, I fail to see why there is not equivalent skepticism of those practitioners of "traditional" health care, especially given the spiral of costs and the regular breaking news about abuses within the medical community.

I find it interesting that any possible drawback of alternative treatments are played up with plenty of media coverage, while mistakes within the medical community are not only downplayed, but hidden and suppressed within the medical community.....and this has been the case for decades. The medical community is a powerful vested interest that covers up their own shortcomings and points out those of their competitors.

There is an unwarrented extension of respect where there should not be.

godfry

p.s. - what percentage of Vioxx users experienced strokes?

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Heh. I wish I could afford to go to a doctor for a scrip. Can I just use this circumstance to rationalize raiding the liquor cabinet? Huh? Please?

Nope... Not really. I'd recommend icing it early on, if the source of the pain can be localized. Exercise it regularly, stretching and relaxing the muscles as much as possible without putting yourself in pain. Then later, apply heat to promote blood flow and keep exercising and stretching.

Alcohol just makes you stupid. See the Darwin Awards.

godfry

[Ymir's blood]

Advil (Ibuprofen) works well for aches. It helped me get over a bout of tendonitis several years ago.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Ymir's blood

Advil (Ibuprofen) works well for aches. It helped me get over a bout of tendonitis several years ago.

Yes, it can help. However, overreliance upon it can cause liver damage....

Acetaminophen is safer and just as effective.

Didn't your physician tell you that?

godfry

[Ymir's blood]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Yes, it can help. However, overreliance upon it can cause liver damage....

Over use of anything can be dangerous.

Acetaminophen is safer and just as effective.

I've never found it to be effective with body pains. It works great for headaches though.

Didn't your physician tell you that?

Actually the medicine the doctor prescribed didn't help very much. This was just the 200mg over the counter stuff. Unlike the presecription medication, it didn't give me the runs either.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Yes, it can help. However, overreliance upon it can cause liver damage....

Acetaminophen is safer and just as effective.

Didn't your physician tell you that?

godfry

You got it backwards, godfry, it's acetaminophen that is the liver killer. Ibuprofen is primarily a danger to people that already have liver disease, such as Hep C. Linky

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by warrenly

You got it backwards, godfry, it's acetaminophen that is the liver killer. Ibuprofen is primarily a danger to people that already have liver disease, such as Hep C. Linky

Typical....

* godfry n. glad tapdancing and whistling....

Thank you, Warn. I sit corrected.



godfry

[JoeP]

When you're right, you're right, godfry, but I'm glad you sometimes need correction. :schadenfreude: