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  #7876  
Old 12-15-2017, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
At first it was a clinical study. At the point he needed samples, he was doing research.
He sure was, peacegirl, he sure was - that's why he had an ethical obligation to obtain independent ethical oversight. Which he didn't do. And that is why he unethically experimented on children.

Last edited by ChuckF; 12-15-2017 at 09:14 PM.
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  #7877  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

As if there were any doubt, we can add MS to the list of conditions that vaccines don't cause.
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  #7878  
Old 12-16-2017, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Five Year Old Dies from the MMR Vaccine, creating Holly's Law | Learn The Risk
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  #7879  
Old 12-16-2017, 03:59 AM
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  #7880  
Old 12-16-2017, 04:24 AM
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  #7881  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:13 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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I knew it, I was too late. :lol:

peacegirl, getting a large amount of money from lawyers for whom a certain outcome would be really, really convenient is a huge conflict of interest. Not disclosing that conflict of interest is profoundly unethical and dishonest and borders on the criminal.
There was no conflict of interest. Get your facts straight!

Dr. Andrew Wakefield Deals With Allegations - Vaxxed

Conflict of Interest - 6:13

You are vilifying this doctor because he didn't follow the proper protocol, but once again this does not make him a fraud. You are assuming that his intentions were evil. I disagree wholeheartedly. Number One, his paper was not meant to prove his hypothesis. It was an observational paper which was corroborated by 12 other doctors. He was picked on because he was the most outspoken and therefore the most threatening. It's so obvious if you don't have blinders on. Number Two, he did not hire lawyers. The parents did. They asked him to be an expert consultant. His financial agreement to be employed for this reason did not mean that there was a conflict of interest, which would mean he set this up for the sole purpose of making a profit. Your accusations are evil.
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  #7882  
Old 12-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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His financial agreement to be employed for this reason did not mean that there was a conflict of interest, which would mean he set this up for the sole purpose of making a profit. Your accusations are evil.
:giggle: peacegirl, remember what I said about it being transparently obvious when you are just making up dumb shit?

So to be clear, peacegirl - you agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT be required to disclose those agreements when publishing related research?
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  #7883  
Old 12-16-2017, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
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His financial agreement to be employed for this reason did not mean that there was a conflict of interest, which would mean he set this up for the sole purpose of making a profit. Your accusations are evil.
:giggle: peacegirl, remember what I said about it being transparently obvious when you are just making up dumb shit?

So to be clear, peacegirl - you agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT be required to disclose those agreements when publishing related research?
Just took you off of ignore to see what bullshit you’re spewing and it has now turned into diarrhea. All you are is a big fat know-it-all hiding behind your legal jargon! :laugh:
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  #7884  
Old 12-16-2017, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Just took you off of ignore
Yes, peacegirl, this is definitely, certainly, undeniably, scientifically, mathematically true :yup:

So to be clear, peacegirl - you agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT have to tell anybody about that money?
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  #7885  
Old 12-16-2017, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Just took you off of ignore
Yes, peacegirl, this is definitely, certainly, undeniably, scientifically, mathematically true :yup:

So to be clear, peacegirl - you agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT have to tell anybody about that money?
Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time! :popcorn:
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Last edited by peacegirl; 12-16-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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  #7886  
Old 12-16-2017, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time! :popcorn:
:lol:

Your refusal to answer the question reveals your cognitive dissonance and bias. You think that Wakefield is Jesus Christ and ethical rules don't apply to him.
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  #7887  
Old 12-16-2017, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
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Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time! :popcorn:
:lol:

Your refusal to answer the question reveals your cognitive dissonance and bias. You think that Wakefield is Jesus Christ and ethical rules don't apply to him.
You had a bias from day 1, which is why you refuse to watch his videos or listen to the rebuttals. I answered all of your questions. His misstep with the blood samples does not make his work fraudulent. There was no conflict of interest, which presupposes that he had an agenda to bilk people out of money for his own gain. This is preposterous and awful of you to perpetuate the same old lies.
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Old 12-16-2017, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by But View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time! :popcorn:
:lol:

Your refusal to answer the question reveals your cognitive dissonance and bias. You think that Wakefield is Jesus Christ and ethical rules don't apply to him.
You had a bias from day 1, which is why you refuse to watch his videos or listen to the rebuttals.
The video is useless, all you can see is a liar who weasels and evades. He says that the editor of the journal should have known about the money. OK then, what about readers of the article? It's a universally accepted rule that you always have to mention relationships and sources of funding in the article itself, so readers can take it into account. The big problem is not the conflict or potential conflict of interest, it's not disclosing it, which is profoundly dishonest.
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  #7889  
Old 12-16-2017, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by But View Post
Quote:
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Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time! :popcorn:
:lol:

Your refusal to answer the question reveals your cognitive dissonance and bias. You think that Wakefield is Jesus Christ and ethical rules don't apply to him.
You had a bias from day 1, which is why you refuse to watch his videos or listen to the rebuttals.
The video is useless, all you can see is a liar who weasels and evades.
You didn't even watch it, so how would you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by But
He says that the editor of the journal should have known about the money.
What money are you talking about? He took no money until the parents asked him to be an expert consultant, which he was entitled to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by But
OK then, what about readers of the article? It's a universally accepted rule that you always have to mention relationships and sources of funding in the article itself, so readers can take it into account. The big problem is not the conflict or potential conflict of interest, it's not disclosing it, which is profoundly dishonest.
He didn't do anything that was dishonest. The more you talk, the more I realize there is no convincing you, or anyone here, of his innocence until his research paper can no longer be invalidated. This will happen, mark my words.
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  #7890  
Old 12-16-2017, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by But
He says that the editor of the journal should have known about the money.
What money are you talking about? He took no money until the parents asked him to be an expert consultant, which he was entitled to.
Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by But View Post
Quote:
The most obvious conflicts of interest are financial relationships such as:
Direct:
employment, stock ownership, grants, patents.

Indirect:
honoraria, consultancies to sponsoring organizations, mutual fund ownership, paid expert testimony.
It has to be mentioned in the article itself so readers can take it into account. It's a universally accepted rule in the research community. Not adhering to it is profoundly dishonest.
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  #7891  
Old 12-16-2017, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by But View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by But
He says that the editor of the journal should have known about the money.
What money are you talking about? He took no money until the parents asked him to be an expert consultant, which he was entitled to.
Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by But View Post
Quote:
The most obvious conflicts of interest are financial relationships such as:
Direct:
employment, stock ownership, grants, patents.

Indirect:
honoraria, consultancies to sponsoring organizations, mutual fund ownership, paid expert testimony.
It has to be mentioned in the article itself so readers can take it into account. It's a universally accepted rule in the research community. Not adhering to it is profoundly dishonest.
What had to be mentioned? The paid expert testimony didn't come until much later when the parents believed that litigation against the manufacturers was justified based on the diagnosis, which was supported by many other doctors, including Dr. Walker, who was the world's leading expert on pediatric gastroenterology. You refuse to watch the video because you're afraid you may be wrong.

Here is a snippet of what Wakefield said.

6:17 Dr. Andrew Wakefield Deals With Allegations - Vaxxed

It was alleged that the study was done for the purpose of litigation, indeed, that it was funded by lawyers for litigation. That is absolutely untrue. It simply was not. So I agreed to be a medical expert and was obliged to act as a medical expert on their behalf as any number of doctors were lining up on the other side to be paid as experts to act on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry. One of the allegations against me is that I had acted on behalf of lawyers; that I was being paid by lawyers to do the Lancet study. In fact, I was being paid for by a government funded compensation program to act as a medical expert. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the Lancet study which was paid for by the National Health Service. The payment from the legal aid board was not to me initially; it was to the medical school to conduct a study to look for evidence of measles virus in the diseased intestines of these children. That's what it specifically did. This was known to the editor of the Lancet nearly a year before the paper was published. He was sent documents from the lawyer saying we are working with Dr. Andy Wakefield on this issue. He knew or should have known but conveniently he forget that fact when it came to testifying before the General Medical Council under oath, and it was only subsequently disclosed that he knew all along.



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  #7892  
Old 12-16-2017, 06:33 PM
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:lol:
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  #7893  
Old 12-16-2017, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

More proof that Wakefield did get ethical approval.

18:05
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  #7894  
Old 12-16-2017, 08:20 PM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Since you gave a time stamp I watched,
Wakefield, 'One of the charges that were sustained against us was that we didn't have ethical approval.' (of drawing blood at his son's birthday party among others).
Wakefield, 'But you see, Brian deer kept some documents aside!'

Approved to:
“The taking of two extra mucosal biopsies for research purposes during the course of colonoscopy in children.”

Obviously being approved to take two extra biopsies during a colonoscopy is basically the same as being approved to draw blood from children at a party.
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  #7895  
Old 12-16-2017, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Just took you off of ignore
Yes, peacegirl, this is definitely, certainly, undeniably, scientifically, mathematically true :yup:

So to be clear, peacegirl - you agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT have to tell anybody about that money?
Your leading questions are revealing for anybody who knows what to look for.
So then, your answer to Chuck's question is yes, you wholeheartedly agree that physicians who enter into financial agreements to receive money from Big Pharma should NOT have to tell anybody about that money. Good to know.
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  #7896  
Old 12-16-2017, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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conflict of interest . . . presupposes that he had an agenda to bilk people out of money for his own gain.
:lol:

Looks like we can add "conflict of interest" to the infinitely long list of terms ol' Janis uses but doesn't understand.
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  #7897  
Old 12-16-2017, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Since you gave a time stamp I watched,
Wakefield, 'One of the charges that were sustained against us was that we didn't have ethical approval.' (of drawing blood at his son's birthday party among others).
Wakefield, 'But you see, Brian deer kept some documents aside!'

Approved to:
“The taking of two extra mucosal biopsies for research purposes during the course of colonoscopy in children.”

Obviously being approved to take two extra biopsies during a colonoscopy is basically the same as being approved to draw blood from children at a party.
He was referring to ethical approval of the biopsies which he was given. Brian Deer conveniently failed to provide the letter to the GMC.
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  #7898  
Old 12-16-2017, 09:51 PM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

PeaceGirl, do you or don't you agree that a colonoscopy biopsy is *exactly* the same as drawing blood?
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  #7899  
Old 12-16-2017, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
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He was referring to ethical approval of the biopsies which he was given. Brian Deer conveniently failed to provide the letter to the GMC.
:lolwut:

peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about. Why would Brian Deer have to prove this to the GMC? Wakefield could give it to the GMC. The ethics committee could give it to the GMC.

But even if they all did that, it would not change the fact that Andy Wakefield unethically experimented on children.
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  #7900  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
He was referring to ethical approval of the biopsies which he was given. Brian Deer conveniently failed to provide the letter to the GMC.
:lolwut:

peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about. Why would Brian Deer have to prove this to the GMC? Wakefield could give it to the GMC. The ethics committee could give it to the GMC.

But even if they all did that, it would not change the fact that Andy Wakefield unethically experimented on children.
Because Deer was trying to frame Dr. Wakefield. In the effort to do this he omitted pertinent correspondence that took place a year before. You can try to define what Wakefield did as a crime, but he did not experiment on children the way you want people to believe. Shame on you Chuck for mischaracterizing this man.
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