Measuring Greed

[Gonzo]

At what point do you think wanting something, or accumulating more than one needs to survive, becomes greedy?

It's funny to me that people who are enlightened to what capitalism really is often agree that it is based on individualism and/or greed, but I'm not sure I ever hear the term come into play beyond that, as with people who are out buying stuff.

It doesn't seem to me that the want for more money, alone, is considered greedy because everyone is always saying they could use more (of course, they could), so is it the desire or the act of gaining that is wrong? Rich people are called greedy, but (almost) everyone wants to be richer... (Something libertarians are always pointing out when they want to discredit populist goals)

So is it merely the selfishness that sustains a greedy outlook (and, beyond that,) isn't almost all capitalism selfish and thereby greedy?

[Jerome]

[Gonzo]

Even when it makes people starve to death?

[Jerome]

What do you mean exactly?

[Gonzo]

greed
noun /grēd/
Intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food

When enough people are acting out of greed, others will inevitably become impoverished, powerless, and hungry.

[Gonzo]

Or in a metaphor... If you were to see the world as a dinner table set for ten people, and one person asserted their power/ status to take as much as they wanted, others would be left without if everyone was motivated by greed. The weakest people would be the first to lose out every time. And the weakest people on Earth are mostly children.

[SR71]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

greed
noun /grēd/
Intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food

When enough people are acting out of greed, others will inevitably become impoverished, powerless, and hungry.

That's my take on it. I don't care how rich someone gets, rich does not equal greedy. It's how they get rich. If someone's way of getting rich is putting other people out of business or diminishing the fortunes of others, that would qualify as greedy.

[Gonzo]

What about just coveting something, though? Doesn't it sort of detract from more meaningful things in life?

Or not?

Also, I would point out that you don't have to be blatantly rich and selfish to do harm to others. Buying something equals someone else's hard work and labor. Whether or not they were treated fairly in the process is unknown, thus ignorance allows greed to be justified.

[SR71]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

What about just coveting something, though? Doesn't it sort of detract from more meaningful things in life?

Or not?

Also, I would point out that you don't have to be blatantly rich and selfish to do harm to others. Buying something equals someone else's hard work and labor. Whether or not they were treated fairly in the process is unknown, thus ignorance allows greed to be justified.

May I offer as an example our penchant for buying Chinese made goods? I've heard arguments that working at Foxxcon or whatever is a better alternative than a hardscrabble existence in the countryside. I'm not so sure that's the end of the dialogue though. Is it really any way to treat people to make them work ungodly shifts just to make a minimal living? To my way of thinking, that is just exploiting a vulnerable labor pool, and is tantamount to greed. A typical counter argument is that they would have it even worse if they did not have the option of being wage slaves. My answer is that it still greedy and morally, this is no way to treat people. Pay them more, and our price will rise, and the worker will have more to spend in HIS economy.

Yes, it's an iffy question of whether or not our tacit acceptance of the exploitation equals greed or not. As everyday people, the only real control we have is whether we buy the products or not. Maybe we all are tacitly greedy when we buy these things. As you allude to, it is rather insidious the way this works. We all know, in general terms, what is going on, but the specifics are a bit murky.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

greed
noun /grēd/
Intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food

When enough people are acting out of greed, others will inevitably become impoverished, powerless, and hungry.

It is human nature to be greedy, it is a survival instinct. I guess the question is, to what degree is this common human behavior manifest.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Or in a metaphor... If you were to see the world as a dinner table set for ten people, and one person asserted their power/ status to take as much as they wanted, others would be left without if everyone was motivated by greed. The weakest people would be the first to lose out every time. And the weakest people on Earth are mostly children.

Well, by that example everyone here posting on this forum is greedy, as they have chosen to use resources for their enjoyment over the food needs of the poor.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by SR71

I don't care how rich someone gets, rich does not equal greedy. It's how they get rich. If someone's way of getting rich is putting other people out of business or diminishing the fortunes of others, that would qualify as greedy.

For the most part I agree with this.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Jerome

It is human nature to be greedy, it is a survival instinct. I guess the question is, to what degree is this common human behavior manifest.

I'd like to see what TLR has to say in response to that.

I disagree. In my opinion it is human nature to survive, period. That means eating enough food, drinking enough water, keeping a shelter for protection from weather, and propagating the species. All selfish aims, but not necessarily greedy.

All of those things can be done in a manner in which is not greedy and the fact that our culture plays up materialism plays a heavy role in people wanting more for themselves than what they need. As I mentioned before, the problem stems from ignorance.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Jerome

Well, by that example everyone here posting on this forum is greedy, as they have chosen to use resources for their enjoyment over the food needs of the poor.

That sort of my point. Not that greed is inherent in people, but suppressed in consumerism. Consumerism is inherently greedy.

And where do we draw the line?

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

And where do we draw the line?

When we get to the star trek universe. We will first need a world government, the trouble here is we will need to kill innocence in the process of converting those rogue nations. We will also need planned breeding, only the best and brightest.

[lisarea]

It is a normal and healthy aspect of human nature to strive for something better, or to covet something, and a lot of the time, that something is a material thing. It would be futile and possibly even a bad thing to try to squelch that desire.

I think maybe part of the problem is that people build up their expectations, and think there's some end goal to their acquisitions. Like, this is the thing--whether it's some new clothes or a beach house or an airplane or whatever--that is going to make me content and make my life complete. That is not only unrealistic, but it's probably undesirable. I'm not sure you can be happy or fulfilled or productive if you're not looking forward to some new experience or acquisition. We're just naturally materialistic, and probably the best way to manage that is to acknowledge it and be conscious of how and why we're doing it.

I think the problems with greed have to do mostly with the ready availability of cheap consumer goods, and the extreme wealth inequities (both for the developed vs. developing world, huge wealth gaps within single economies). Some people really do have too much, and that leads to greed and waste. The super-wealthy just accumulate a bunch of property and other ostentatious stuff that they can't reasonably even use; and in the lower income brackets in the industrialized world, planned obsolescence makes a whole lot of things disposable that never were before, so much of the acquisition going on there isn't even getting some cool, exciting new thing, but just dull, joyless replacement of crap they already had. That's more laziness (or exasperation because who even has the energy to buck such pervasive trends) than it is greed, really.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

That sort of my point. Not that greed is inherent in people, but suppressed in consumerism. Consumerism is inherently greedy.

And where do we draw the line?

Ten items or less?

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Consumerism is inherently greedy.

when there is no more room in hell,

the dead will walk the earth

Dawn of the Dead (1978) Uncensored Trailer -...

[SR71]

I have a personal observation peripheral to the subject at hand. All of my needs are petty well fulfilled. Maybe I need some dental work, but that is more a matter of laziness on my part than an inability to fulfill the need. My list of wants is also very short and in fact not even very motivating towards getting them fulfilled. I have to say I am pretty well satisfied and not really reaching or striving for MOAR. I guess maybe the opposite of greed is complacency?

[Gonzo]

The opposite of Greed is Charity.

[SR71]

Good point.

[Awareness]

Greed comes in with SOME when obligation stands at your doorstep.
All alone with millions is just all alone

[ZEZOZE]

if you deprive others for your gain...you're greedy.

i'm greedy.