From Porn to Eternal Flamewar: A Thread Split

[seebs]

Hmm.

I guess... I'm not sure what the downside of "amateur" comics is. I've seen a lot of Japanese yaoi, and I've seen what my wife does, and frankly, my wife's comic is a lot better.

She's arguably an "amateur" in that we haven't formally incorporated the studio as a company, and isn't earning enough to pay taxes on it. Yet.

But... In terms of the quality of the material the studio puts out, these people are in the same level of skill as a lot of "real" mangaka, and frankly, a hell of a lot better than, e.g., Clamp. Many of the characters in my wife's comic could exist as real people without extensive surgery, and would be able to walk without excruciating pain.

I'm not saying this work is always the best there is; there's a lot of very good work coming out of "real" mangaka... But at the same time, dismissing it so casually seems a little silly. What's wrong with talented amateurs? All the really good professionals were once talented amateurs.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by seebs

I guess... I'm not sure what the downside of "amateur" comics is. I've seen a lot of Japanese yaoi, and I've seen what my wife does, and frankly, my wife's comic is a lot better.

You obviously haven't seen enough yaoi then.

Look, there's Amateur doujinshi circles, and then there's amateurs. There's SynDoru, and then there's your wife. There's stuff I'd bother reading and then there's stuff I wouldn't.

[quote]She's arguably an "amateur" in that we haven't formally incorporated the studio as a company, and isn't earning enough to pay taxes on it. Yet.

But... In terms of the quality of the material the studio puts out, these people are in the same level of skill as a lot of "real" mangaka, and frankly, a hell of a lot better than, e.g., Clamp.

...

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHDHWHWHHAHAhehehehhihihihihi hi oh my *wipes tear away from eye and rights chair*. Oh, I think that's the best jokes I've heard all day. Yes, of course, an amateur online comic artist is better than a group of ladies who have been at their work professionally (not to mention the years they spent as amateurs) for 15 years.

Of course. Yes. Silly me. *snorts*

You wouldn't last a day at Comiket.

Many of the characters in my wife's comic could exist as real people without extensive surgery, and would be able to walk without excruciating pain.

Um, so? Since when does this mean it's a good story or decent art? That's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard for the choice of one comic over another in a long time. Fuck, if kids chose the gekinga over the manga, the Japanese comic industry would be out of business. Not a fucking day.

What's wrong with talented amateurs?

Nothing, but I reserve my right to decide what's worth spending my time on, what I like, and what I don't like. OMG teh opinion of teh consumer!!1one Shock horror gasp! I can think of about 10 online comics off the top of my head in the same vein as your wife's which are done better and are more worth my time. Boohoo. She's not as good as you think she is. Fucking deal with it.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Adora

Nothing, but I reserve my right to decide what's worth spending my time on, what I like, and what I don't like. OMG teh opinion of teh consumer!!1one Shock horror gasp! I can think of about 10 online comics off the top of my head in the same vein as your wife's which are done better and are more worth my time. Boohoo. She's not as good as you think she is. Fucking deal with it.

Or maybe you just have bad taste. Who knows? Obviously the fact that some women have been at it professionally for years says nothing about the quality of their work. Danielle Steele has been writing her spooge for years too, and slurps up gazillions of dollars from people who hang on every word. So?

It would be nice if art was so easy to categorize that you could just stamp everything with 'good' or 'bad' and be done with it, but I haven't seen any evidence that such an objective standard exists. What makes you think your opinion of seebs' wife's work is the definitive one?

[Adora]

So?

So yeah? I dunno, what's your point? I'm stating an opinion that I think saying his wife's work is better than CLAMP's is... greatly mistaken. Same as your opinion on Danielle Steel's work. I don't see an issue here.

What makes you think your opinion of seebs' wife's work is the definitive one?

When the fuck did I say it was definitive? Please, if I did, point it out to me and I'll edit the post. Really, I will. *sincere look... snort*

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Adora

So yeah? I dunno, what's your point? I'm stating an opinion that I think saying his wife's work is better than CLAMP's is... greatly mistaken. Same as your opinion on Danielle Steel's work. I don't see an issue here.

Wait, you think my opinion of Danielle Steele's work is mistaken?

Originally Posted by Adora

When the fuck did I say it was definitive? Please, if I did, point it out to me and I'll edit the post. Really, I will. *sincere look... snort*

You said his wife is not as good as he thinks she is. That sounds pretty definitive to me. But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think there's a pretty obvious difference between slamming Danielle Steele (who isn't likely to read what I post here) and viciously slamming seebs' wife. I have no opinion on her work myself but so what if he sees it through rose-colored glasses, does he deserve to be attacked for it?

[Adora]

Wait, you think my opinion of Danielle Steele's work is mistaken?

No, sorry, my bad on the comment structure. I mean, I gave my opinion on X, you gave your opinion on Y.

That sounds pretty definitive to me

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth. He said she was better than CLAMP, and in my mind (fuckit, I wasn't going to post it here, but if we're going to play this game, let's play fucking hardball) I thought "Right. Where's the tonework, story pacing, visual suspense, half-decent fucking dialogue, and hell, character expressions maybe? Where's the creative stories, likable characters, linework and grasp of light/shadow? Where's the beautiful watercolours and ink artwork, pretty boys, aesthetic principles and cute-factor that make it so wonderful and supposedly better than CLAMP's work, which is famous for all these things, and more?"

...

I am not drnying amateurs have to start somewhere. They do. I am not denying her work is good. It is definitely above-average. But seebs stepped in it when he brought out the professional comparison. Yes, he deserves to be torn a new one for that stupid remark. That's why I said "not as good as he thinks she is".

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Adora

No, sorry, my bad on the comment structure. I mean, I gave my opinion on X, you gave your opinion on Y.

Ah, okay. You scared me for a minute there.

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth.

Hehe. Well of course saying it's "the truth" is definitive, but nevermind. The rest of your response is fair enough. I still think it was unnecessarily blunt, but I don't want to flog a horse that isn't even mine. I'm sure seebs can answer for himself.

[seebs]

Okay, if you like Clamp's art, we are obviously from different worlds. Clamp's art is ethereal, pretty, and bears no relationship to the structure of human bodies.

We have crates of real Japanese manga. I know the genre. I don't necessarily like it any better than casual scribbles; art isn't about producing exactly the same big round eyes every time.

I guess... There's a lot of questions of taste involved, here. I don't expect everyone to like my wife's art, but I think that "amateurness" is not the problem with it.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Adora

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth. He said she was better than CLAMP, and in my mind (fuckit, I wasn't going to post it here, but if we're going to play this game, let's play fucking hardball) I thought "Right. Where's the tonework, story pacing, visual suspense, half-decent fucking dialogue, and hell, character expressions maybe? Where's the creative stories, likable characters, linework and grasp of light/shadow? Where's the beautiful watercolours and ink artwork, pretty boys, aesthetic principles and cute-factor that make it so wonderful and supposedly better than CLAMP's work, which is famous for all these things, and more?"

Okay, the reason I picked CLAMP is largely that I think they absolutely lack all of those. I've read CLAMP. It's shit. It's crap. The characters are at best tolerable, and most of them annoy me. Pretty boys? Small-boobed tall girls with dicks are not "boys". People whose knees are misjointed are not "pretty". Aesthetic principles? Personal taste; obviously, we disagree. I like the art the girls do a lot better, aesthetically, than CLAMP. Artwork? YMMV. I like Jesse's better; it lacks the soulless polish of CLAMP, but I like it. Tonework? Not sure what you mean; if you mean "shading", Jesse's marker art is better shaded than all of the CLAMP art I've seen, and screentones are a purely retro thing; you use 'em if you have a crappy printer. They're an affectation now. Story pacing? I like the story pacing. Visual suspense? Got that. Character expressions? All over. "Half-decent dialogue", you have GOT to be fucking kidding me. CLAMP's "dialogue" reads like bad goth poetry. Doom and pain stain the fucking teeth. Metanoia's characters talk like the people they are.

Metanoia is not "like CLAMP, only better". It's "better than CLAMP". It's got something to say, and I would call CLAMP's gradeschool angst a tragic failure in that department.

There are lots of manga artists better than Jesse. Tons of 'em. There are not many whose stories I like as much, although there are a few. But CLAMP? Give me a break. They're a practical joke.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by seebs

... Clamp's art is ethereal, pretty, and bears no relationship to the structure of human bodies.
...

I don't necessarily like it any better than casual scribbles; art isn't about producing exactly the same big round eyes every time.

There's a lot of questions of taste involved, here. I don't expect everyone to like my wife's art, but I think that "amateurness" is not the problem with it.

Then what is?

You a) have no love of the art, b) have misguided ideas about what it's meant to depict and c) lack a sensitivity to the genre, yet somehow think your opinion on the subject is valid, just because she's your wife.

¬_¬... Seebs, I'm sure the mothers of the world who think their little angel is the most perfect singer on the planet and should be on Idol are with you 100% in this.

Edit:
Regarding CLAMP...

You are not the target audience for their works, obviously. So I never expect you to like their work as a whole. But if you're going to start dissing the stuff they're good at, I'm going to get out the big bat.

Pretty boys? Small-boobed tall girls with dicks are not "boys".

And yet, again, you show your ignorance of the entire yaoi/Boylove genre, as well as the shoujo genre which encompasses these. For fucks sake, if a fucking Creationist came in here and starting jumping up and down about evolution, they'd be chased off the forum. But you're just as ignorant as they are about what you're making claims about, and yet it's tolerated.

Fuck that.

Tonework? Not sure what you mean; if you mean "shading", Jesse's marker art is better shaded than all of the CLAMP art I've seen, and screentones are a purely retro thing; you use 'em if you have a crappy printer.

O.O

Holy fucking shitchrist on a stick... tones... crappy printer... retro... >.<

I can't... argh. You. Are. So. Fucking. Ignorant. Really, you are. Just STFU now. Please. For fucks sake... You have just displayed how much you fucking don't know about this shit. Please, think of the kittens or something, before you hurt yourself.

*bangs head against desk*

[seebs]

I guess, I don't feel that all yaoi is compelled to stick with the "pair of underage boys who talk like shoujo girls" style.

It is possible that I appreciate art, but don't have the same taste in it you do. I know that my complaints about CLAMP are not unique to me; I have heard similar complaints from lots of artists.

You can call me "ignorant" all you want... Tell ya what, I'll go get sources for my comments about screen tones, which I picked up from reading about them, after noticing that they had become a lot less common over time. Hand-halftoning is a lot less useful now than it used to be. We can print much smoother grayscales now.

But... I dunno. What are your credentials? I'm working with three artists who are actually making money on this; one of them is making a LIVING at it. We have stacks of reference books on the topic.

You have, so far as I can tell, a bunch of downloaded scanlations.

[Adora]

I've worked in 3 dounjinshi circles as a writer/artist part-time. Though I am no longer part of any of these thanks to study/other life commitments, I value my experience and time I spent with them.

I guess, I don't feel that all yaoi is compelled to stick with the "pair of underage boys who talk like shoujo girls" style.

Since when did CLAMP count as yaoi? Which one are you talking about here exactly?

Tell ya what, I'll go get sources for my comments about screen tones, which I picked up from reading about them, after noticing that they had become a lot less common over time. Hand-halftoning is a lot less useful now than it used to be. We can print much smoother grayscales now.

I'm sure you can, but toning is still a skill of the art that is valued by amateurs and professionals alike. Jesus fuck, if anyone I knew who worked in the circles made a comment like that, they'd be laughed out of town. It's like learning to walk before you can run with the big-boys, and it's especially about honing your art skills to be able to create better moods and scenes. I'm not saying you should rely on it, but it's an important part of the medium.

[seebs]

The point is, screentones are a thing you use if you have a specific reason to. Lack of tonework does not make art bad, any more than lack of oil paint makes a watercolor bad.

Jesse is not trying to draw stereotyped shounen-ai. She's drawing a story in which some actual male characters, who are anotomically correct, fuck. I think this is a hell of a lot more interesting than carefully imitating every last detail of the style of mass-produced crap.

I stand by the claim that her work is better art than CLAMPs. I have very little respect for CLAMP; it's mass-produced crap, with no artistic integrity, messages that coulda been written by angsty high-school kids, and, well, that's about it. Very pretty, as long as you supress any and all thoughts of human anatomy... But what do I care?

[Goliath]

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm......

[seebs]

You were too obvious, vm, I want my bribe money back.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm......

I "jumped all over Adora" because I thought she went way overboard raking seebs over the coals for being a big fan of his own wife's work and I have a tendency to speak my mind when I think people are being mistreated. Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

[seebs]

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this is that Adora seems to be expecting Metanoia to be shonen-ai or yaoi, and adhere to the traditions and style of manga, up to and including, for instance, the use of screeentones instead of markers for shading. I'm looking at it as art on its own merits, and I have talked about it with other artists, some of whom are real live full-time professionals.

If you're looking for the stylized cues that manga tend to give you, you won't find 'em in metanoia. Things tend to be fairly close to anatomically correct; yelling characters don't have much larger mouths, and the mouth doesn't turn into a tiny little line when it's closed. The eyes are about the right size. So... The characters' faces aren't "expressive" the way they are in, oh, say, Takahashi's work. But... They're expressive the way actual peoples' faces are, and I think there's a lot of expression in them. (It helps, of course, that I see them before they get shrunk to a pathetic 72dpi...)

I have no idea what to make of the criticism of the dialogue. I know real people who talk like these characters.

Is the work rough? Yeah. This is a single person doing a comic in her spare time, with no assistants, and doing a couple of pages a week, like clockwork. Target Down is a 16-page comic done entirely, from script to finished work, in 6 days, and 90% of that (everything except some of the shading) by a single artist with no assistants.

But... It's doing okay. It's actually making some money now, although not as much as, say, Fireball's infinitely more accessible manga-style fanarts. It's got a medium-sized regular readership, and the readers appear to be able to find the plot, however subtle it may be. Responses to the prologue have generally been positive, up to and including a marriage proposal. (IANMTU.)

Is the art perfect? No. Is it as detailed as a manga studio would put out? No. But... The characters look like actual people. They have distinct body types; you can recognize them when they change clothes, for instance. They are, in most cases, anatomically correct. I like that a lot, personally; one of the things I don't always like about manga is the tendency to stylize characters until they're no longer physically possible.

I don't think I'm as ignorant of the shoujo genre as you might think; I just don't see it as the defining ideal by which to judge a comic which really isn't shoujo at all. Yaoi does not need to be done in a really shoujo style; in fact, non-shoujo yaoi attracts a lot of interest from people who are finding the anatomical improbabilities frustrating.

But...

I dunno. I think it's actual art, and I think that matters. I distinguish between the fluffy fanart the girls do, and the serious art that's supposed to say something. Sometimes the serious art isn't perfectly polished; sometimes it's a little rough in spots. I don't care about that much.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I "jumped all over Adora" because I thought she went way overboard raking seebs over the coals for being a big fan of his own wife's work and I have a tendency to speak my mind when I think people are being mistreated. Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

filthy fucking theist lover


you bastard, sticking up for someone, what the fuck were you thinking.

end dumbass rant.

[beyelzu]

first off I read alot of comics, got 15 gigs on my comp and I have read quite a few manga, I really liked crying freeman.

If seebs wife's comics arent up to the standards of the genre then the genre is shite.

period.

it looks good and is well written.

I read another comic that seebs posted about over at ii quite awhile ago.

and I liked it alot in spite of the gay boy love action, I am just not excited by gay boy love.

the comics are well written and well drawn from what I have read.

so adora

either you are

full of shit
or

the genre is.


this public service announcement brought to you by the eac trying to lull christianity into a false sense of security one liberal theist at a time.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by seebs

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this is that Adora seems to be expecting Metanoia to be shonen-ai or yaoi, and adhere to the traditions and style of manga, up to and including, for instance, the use of screeentones instead of markers for shading.

First of all, if I had any ideas about that, it could only possibly be from you calling it "a shounen ai comic" when you describe it (in the slash thread way back when, which I corrected you on).

Second of all, no I'm not.

I'm expecting that when someone claims something is better than CLAMP, it better live up to that standard. The fact you even brought CLAMP in as a comparison situated it in the shoujo genre. If you had compared it to something else, say, a gekinga, which is what your wife's comic seems to be closer to than a manga, we wouldn't be in this mess.

But wait, since when does Earth Logic apply here?

(It helps, of course, that I see them before they get shrunk to a pathetic 72dpi...)

Ó.o the fuck? You claim you're printing this shit, and you're doing it at only 72 dpi? o.Ò

No wonder you can't handle teh screentones...

The characters look like actual people.

You keep on going back to this point like it's the be-all and end-all of your argument. So fucking what? If I wanted that, I'd read gekingas. Since I only read mangas, obviously, I don't.

I dunno. I think it's actual art, and I think that matters. I distinguish between the fluffy fanart the girls do, and the serious art that's supposed to say something. Sometimes the serious art isn't perfectly polished; sometimes it's a little rough in spots. I don't care about that much.

So what, 'serious' fangirl art has to make the anatomy somehow more correct in your books for it to be considered 'serious'? Because I can already hear my d-circle friends cracking up at this statement...

so adora either you are full of shit or the genre is.

I'm so glad the genre is now being judged definitively by those farthest from its intended and target audience who think they're William Shatner. Wonderful. Just perfect. VM, how much sucky sucky?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Adora

I'm so glad the genre is now being judged definitively by those farthest from its intended and target audience who think they're William Shatner. Wonderful. Just perfect. VM, how much sucky sucky?

damnedest thing just happened. I made a post with a couple hundred words and you responded to only 12 of them.

so I can only assume that you completely agree with the rest of my post.

cool, I am glad that we came to this understanding.

although, I am afraid that I dont understand the last sentence, are you asking me how much pleasure I give vm or how much oral pleasure he gives me?

[Adora]

damnedest thing just happened. I made a post with a couple hundred words and you responded to only 12 of them.
so I can only assume that you completely agree with the rest of my post. cool, I am glad that we came to this understanding.

Actually, I was just shifting through the shit to get to the parts I thought you were actually trying to make a point with. It was tough, I have to say, so it's not surprising I may have got the section wrong. Perhaps you could prevent this problem happening again by using proper English and comment structure.

But regarding the comments you made, I really didn't feel like repeating everything I already said to seebs, since I make the assumption that 99% of people on this board actually read threads properly, and can follow logical thought.

There's always one who misses out though, I guess.

Of course, if I was going to be a wanker, I could point out that at least I actually addressed the post properly, and not used pathetic semantic bullshit to avoid it altogether. But I'm not that much of a bitch, now am I?

although, I am afraid that I dont understand the last sentence, are you asking me how much pleasure I give vm or how much oral pleasure he gives me?

I'm sorry to break your little heart, but that last part had nothing to do with you at all. I was making a reference to the comment above that seebs made in reply to Goliath. *sighs*

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

First of all, I read nothing into what you wrote.

Secondly, I merely wondered why you didn't seem to treat seebs the same way. You, again, are the one who is reading into what the other is saying, not I.

[livius drusus]

Another flamewar on the meaning of art. What a bunch of nerds we are.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Goliath

First of all, I read nothing into what you wrote.

I don't believe you. See below.

Secondly, I merely wondered why you didn't seem to treat seebs the same way. You, again, are the one who is reading into what the other is saying, not I.

Your observation that I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way" is an indication that you have read something into what I wrote. Quote seebs where he goes off on Adora telling her what a talentless hack she or someone close to her is and I'll tell him what I think of his doing so. Oh, wait. You can't because he has never done anything remotely like that. Maybe that would be why I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way".

So what was the point of your post then, Goliath? You came rushing to Adora's defense because I "jumped all over her", but you had absolutely nothing to say about her "jumping all over" seebs first. So obviously your issue isn't with people "jumping all over" people. It seems to be with me jumping all over people, and in particular when I make comments in defense of seebs.

It's obvious that your only point in this thread is to accuse me of showing seebs favoritism, and it's even more obvious that it pisses you off because you dislike seebs. The only part I'm unsure of is whether you dislike seebs because he's such a mean and spiteful person (which he obviously isn't) or because he's a theist (which he obviously is).

Hmmmmmmm.....