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  #26  
Old 04-24-2013, 08:05 PM
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  #27  
Old 04-24-2013, 08:40 PM
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I can totally understand and sometimes will even myself wear something that represents something I strongly identify with. Like I said, blending in is not my sole criterion for things. (In fact, I have about a million fashion rules, all with bylaws and loopholes and stuff that probably nobody even realizes I have.)

I just remembered something pretty hilarious. One of the only times I have been at all inspired to say something to someone about their clothes is that I saw this guy wearing a shirt that said "If you can't open it, you don't own it," which is from the Maker's Bill of Rights. We were waiting in a line and he wasn't doing anything, so I said something to him about it, and he was all like, "HUH?" Turns out he'd bought it through like shirt woot or something and didn't have any idea what it meant. So: Fake Geek Man.

Also, though, about that doctor's coat thing, there's no indication that'd work for the long term. Like, maybe you could get a temporary boost by dressing a certain way for a short period, but if it actually worked long term, people probably would have figured out and widely adopted the Thinkin' Outfit.

The closest thing I can really think of to that is that Umberto Eco had an essay called Lumbar Thought in one of his essay books where he talked about how his form-fitting dungarees (relish that mental image for a moment, plz) were sort of distracting, and how constricting and limiting women's clothes are; and suggested that maybe the ideal outfit for working should be some big flowing Greek philosopher style robe or something.

I read that probably 20 years ago at least, so if I'm misremembering something :dealwithit:
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  #28  
Old 04-24-2013, 08:49 PM
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  #29  
Old 04-24-2013, 09:47 PM
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First off, while I agree that the American What Not to Wear is complete crap, I'm actually a bit of a fan of the original English version. I didn't expect to be, since their posh accents turned me off from the commercials, but their rules are actually pretty good. They focus on what part of your body you want to accent or hide and go from there. Things like saying pleated pants with tapered legs look horrible on every body time is just plain helpful, darn it. The one time I did watch the American show they were telling people to do things that went against the English rules. I found that completely ridiculous. Why buy a show based around rules and then throw those rules out? So I've never watched since. But if you can find some of the books by Trinny and Susannah, I recommend them. They even have useful tips on arranging your closet and packing.

Next, since we're showing rings and talking about our personal styles, I feel compelled to share that I realized recently that all aspects of my personal style are represented in my three silver and onyx rings. As I happen to be wearing them today, I took a picture.



The one on the left is very simple with a little geometric detail. That's the part of me that prefers style to fashion. The part that's still a little Grosse Pointe and likes pearls, well cut suits and simple black and white looks. The middle ring is the part of me who is still a vampirologist. It's both a little dark and also a bit whimsical. The big ring, with the cut work design is the pretty side of me. That's the girl who likes Chanel. The one whose favorite color is mint green and wears sparkly crystal hair combs on a regular basis. I like it because I'm all of those things on different days, and sometimes on the same one.
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  #30  
Old 04-24-2013, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: New And Improved Rant Thread, now with 50% more profanity!

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That's the part of me that prefers style to fashion.
I like that distinction! I never thought about it before, but obviously it's an important one to make.

I put it in the google and now I have some reading to do and maybe get my head straight.

style vs. fashion - Google Search
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  #31  
Old 04-24-2013, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: New And Improved Rant Thread, now with 50% more profanity!

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The vast majority of the time, the higher someone is on the technical hierarchy, the more likely they are to come to work in cutoffs or pajamas. The only workplace demographic who regularly dress up and, hell, comb their hair are people in customer-facing positions, like receptionists and salespeople. And if you walk into an engineering department or something, the person who looks the most like a goblin or a skatergurl or something is most likely to be the technical lead.

But then it occurred to me that the people who write articles like that and who have makeover shows and things who are giving this advice are probably people in completely different industries. Industries like fashion and human resources and stuff. Those probably are the rules for them, and they're just not even aware that their little semiotic hierarchy is not necessarily applicable to everyone, and is actually almost entirely inverted in some fields.
Not to say that you're wrong, cuz I don't really know, but another hypothesis might be that being higher in the hierarchy gives you the freedom to dress how you want BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that dressing however you want will result in promotion.

One of the studies I read recently was about power and (linguistic) accommodation. As you'd expect, those who are higher in the hierarchy accommodate to those lower less often. They ran this on Wikipedia data (they also used other data like Supreme Court oral argument transcripts) and looked at users who became admins so they could see what happened when a person gained more power. Those who became admin tended to accommodate less after becoming admins than before - supporting the idea that more power means you don't have to accommodate as much.

But you would be wrong to conclude from that that accommodating less is the way to get ahead. In fact, people who became admins tended to accommodate more than those who attempted to become admin and failed. Accommodating more is a better way to become an admin.

So, I'm just thinking that it's possible there are some places where the higher ups don't dress up but only because they're NOW the boss - but they did dress up when they were on their up the ladder. It's possible for it to both be true that the boss dresses more casually or even slobbishly AND that dressing that way may make you less likely to get promoted.

Last edited by erimir; 04-25-2013 at 03:27 AM.
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  #32  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ES's link
In the second experiment, 74 students were randomly assigned to one of three options: wearing a doctor’s coat, wearing a painter’s coat or seeing a doctor’s coat. Then they were given a test for sustained attention. They had to look at two very similar pictures side by side on a screen and spot four minor differences, writing them down as quickly as possible.

Those who wore the doctor’s coat, which was identical to the painter’s coat, found more differences. They had acquired heightened attention. Those who wore the painter’s coat or were primed with merely seeing the doctor’s coat found fewer differences between the images.
I can't believe that's a real thing. I thought my pinstripe suit made me feel confident because I look more professional and because it fits nice and is of very good quality...it never occurred to me I might become more professional or efficient by rocking the suit.
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  #33  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:36 PM
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I can't believe that's a real thing. I thought my pinstripe suit made me feel confident because I look more professional and because it fits nice and is of very good quality...it never occurred to me I might become more professional or efficient by rocking the suit.
Right? And it gets all super creepy when you look at studies like the Milgram experiment and the Stanford prison experiment. There is so much psychology in the costumes we wear and the roles we dress for, it's amazing how we can use it to manipulate each other or the situation or ourselves. I experienced tons of psychology like that in the military, just like all that panopticon bullshit. The amount of symbolism and meaning they wrapped up into our uniforms, what different aspects were supposed to represent, and how what we could wear under what circumstances was all very deliberate and orchestrated for maximum manipulation, control, and cohesion.

In "The Paper", Michael Keaton said you can get into any building with a clipboard and a confident wave.

I had someone tell me earlier this semester, "Oh, I thought you were someone important," because of some stuff I did my senior year that usually an undergrad wouldn't take it upon themselves to do. But I am old and I was also old in the Air Force, and that's where I learned when to step up and take charge and fake like you know what you're doing so everybody will do what you say. So when he thought I was someone important, it's because, duh, that's what I wanted him to think. And now people know who I am in my dept. and I get all the bennies. I don't mind people looking at me or paying attention to me when it's on my terms. It's like brand-crafting or some shit.

Then of course there's a bunch of loaded gender shit on top of it. How seriously do I want to be taken in tech? How badly do I not want to be harassed?
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  #34  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:41 PM
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That's a lot of head hurty stuff....hence totally nondescript uniform for me, just easier that way.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:16 AM
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Not to say that you're wrong, cuz I don't really know, but another hypothesis might be that being higher in the hierarchy gives you the freedom to dress how you want BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that dressing however you want will result in promotion.
I thought that was what I said. :(

I must have written something weirdly, because I didn't mean to imply that dressing casually would get you a promotion, but that dressing more formally wouldn't. It's standard advice to 'dress for the position you want,' but taken literally, that might mean dressing like a pirate or a hippy in a workplace where the only people who wear suits are the front desk receptionists and people coming in for interviews. It is very much a permission or tolerance thing, but that's also part of the culture too, to the point that dressing up too much could send some pretty weird messages.

And sometimes the permission would be explicit, like the business attire dress code only applied to customer facing positions like front office, training, and field support. And skatergurl actually negotiated her dress code exemption into her employment contract when she was hired.

The weird superficial parts of the culture are still there in a lot of ways. The standard are just very different in different cultures, which I don't think most generic 'dress for success' advice accounts for.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2013, 02:27 AM
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One of my TAs at McGill told us when we were studying Milgram that she and some others went around campus with lab coats and clipboards seeing what they could get people to do. The only one I remember specifically was that she could get guys to do push-ups in the mud. She was amazed at how much people would do when you looked official.
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  #37  
Old 04-25-2013, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: New And Improved Rant Thread, now with 50% more profanity!

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Not to say that you're wrong, cuz I don't really know, but another hypothesis might be that being higher in the hierarchy gives you the freedom to dress how you want BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that dressing however you want will result in promotion.
I thought that was what I said. :(
Yeah sorry, I realized after I posted that that I hadn't quite worded it the way that I wanted to... but I couldn't edit it because of TapaTalk not doing it.

Quote:
I must have written something weirdly, because I didn't mean to imply that dressing casually would get you a promotion, but that dressing more formally wouldn't.
But also this a little bit.

I took it to mean that you were saying that dressing wouldn't have much of an effect either way. Obviously going to extremes (dressing in a tuxedo or in an undershirt and mud-stained jean cut offs) will probably be bad in most places, but it seemed like you were saying you didn't need to try to look good (beyond some minimum) because it was irrelevant.

I was trying to suggest that while it can be the case that it's importance varies, the very fact that it's the higher ups who have license to violate the typical dress code suggests that it does have some effect. I do totally agree that the field has an effect on how important it is, and the individual company/department culture sets the baseline against which you'll be measured as well. But I think that in most cases, it's helpful to some extent to be more nicely dressed relative to that baseline without overdoing it. If I went around in business suits in a linguistics or computer science department, people would definitely look at me funny. But if I were to dress in button up shirts and better put together outfits (not that I do this) it might still improve the perception of me among my superiors. But I can certainly dress in shorts and bland oversize t-shirts without raising eyebrows.

So of course, treating the advice on (US) What Not to Wear as applying in all work/professional situations would still be very wrong.

But also I thought that paper I read was interesting and pointed out some stuff that might be counter-intuitive that I wanted to talk about cuz you made me think about it.
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2013, 03:59 AM
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Goddamn hippies and their casual work environs. I got called on the carpet for wearing sunglasses in my company profile picture, the picture below. I was wearing a shirt with a collar as asked. They didn't say anything at all about eyewear or location (a brew pub in Glenwood Springs, CO).

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  #39  
Old 04-25-2013, 04:11 AM
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I've got a box of lab coats and doctor coats if anyone wants to get people to do stuff for them. You bring your own damn clipboard.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:04 AM
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My wife doesn't wear any make-up. She doesn't even own any, including lipstick and nail polish. She didn't wear make-up when she worked at Sandia Labs or Motorola and she doesn't wear any now that she works out of home. In fact, in the 30 years that we have been married I have never seen her in any make-up.

I, on the other hand, have a whole case full of make-up, if clown make-up counts.
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  #41  
Old 04-25-2013, 07:44 AM
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I don't normally wear make-up (mostly out of sheer laziness or IDGAF), but if I'm going somewhere nice or somewhere I want to look good (like when we went to dinner in a super-glitz casino in Vegas - still underdressed), I'll put on a little makeup (foundation b/c I have uneven skin tone, lip color, and maybe a bit of bronzer).

Nail polish, though, I can't get enough of. I love crackles, doing designs, all sorts of color combinations, that sort of thing.
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:08 AM
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So this is somewhat timely for me.

I typically didn't wear makeup, except if I was going to an event, which for me meant somewhere pictures might be taken. I am blessed with great skin and good coloring, so I could totally throw on some clothes and look together in 15 minutes. Seriously, Contra takes longer to get ready than me. It was less "fuck what people think" and more "I don't hafta and you can't make me!" I have written before about how he is typically dressed up and I am in jeans and looking like a poor relation. That was definitely, "fuck what people think."

But after I hit thirty some of the magic was gone. I gained weight sure. I have some silver up top I am thinking about working on, while secretly hoping I will wake up and look like one of the X Men. I look tired and old and sloppy.

Recently my SIL became a rep for Mary Kay. Hokey, I know. I mean, I had stuff. Mostly cheap drugstore crud because I am cheap. Q: What kind of lotion do you use? A: Whatever the hell is on sale. Or hey I have a coupon!

I am doing the skin care line now. Cleanser, night cream, moisturizer with spf for the day. I got a lecture on that because I never bothered with protecting against the sun. It is important apparently. My SIL found a tinted moisturizer that is nothing like foundation. It evens out the skin tone, without being all cakey gross and mask like. Plus spf so I can say it is for my health.

I have added a little eyeshadow and lipgloss to my day to day. I still forget sometimes, but most days. Suddenly I have all these add ons though. Tomorrow I am picking up "lash primer." WTF? Lash primer? It was a freebie, I have great lashes but don't wear mascara because they break. I fear this slippery slope happening where I am suddenly all Tammy Faye.

I do look fantastic with it on though. :rarity:

On the one hand, the eye makeup helps because I am getting used to life without contacts. Can't wear them anymore and I want my eyes to be visible and not hiding behind my glasses. On the other hand, I feel weird because it is so new. Growing up without a mom, I had none of this stuff. I was shown how to put on makeup in the rear view mirror of a Ford Escort by my drug-addled aunt when I was twelve. That and teen magazines was all I had to go on. For that reason alone I am glad to have my sis to guide me. She is a natural chick with a punk past so I trust her not to make me look stupid, even if she is getting paid.

On the other hand, while doing this I am having a boycott on shaving. HAIRY LEGS! ARM PIT KITTIES! OMG! I was thinking about starting a thread on that and the reactions I am getting. I always shaved because I was told I had to. I am having a revolt and figuring out how I feel about my body in its natural state. It has been pretty illuminating. Honestly, easier than remembering to use the expensive goop.

I also think the razor ban has had more of an impact on my self esteem and confidence than the makeup. We shall see though once the weather warms up and I have to deal with other people's reactions more. I have had a few conversations about it with people I care about. (Leading with NOOOOOOOO! but ending up with understanding.) Strangers are harder though.

No advice on professional stuff obviously. Though, I realize now that I am an honest woman, "paramour" doesn't fit in my :ff: bio anymore. :chin:
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  #43  
Old 04-25-2013, 08:58 AM
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Hey, some kind of interesting, thoughtful discussion without an oath to be found has broken out here. I think we can all agree that's a mortal insult to this thread. I'ma split this bitch. Somebody give me a title.
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:24 AM
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Hey, I was just coming here to complain about the lack of profanity! Just about to report all of you to the administration but i see that Mr. drusus is on the ball with the banninations and glares.

ETA: also, the title of the new thread should be: "Make-up tips: how to look great at work!"
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:08 AM
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I think ARM PIT KITTIES is the best swear on the whole page, but you do what you think is necessary.
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  #46  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Eddie Izzard Makeup Guilt & ARM PIT KITTIES

I'm so going to win best thread title. :wriggle:
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  #47  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: Eddie Izzard Makeup Guilt & ARM PIT KITTIES

I done split this from the New And Improved Rant Thread. :ironfist:
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Eddie Izzard Makeup Guilt & ARM PIT KITTIES

:freakout:
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: New And Improved Rant Thread, now with 50% more profanity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
and you're a native girl, you are SoCal.
:awesome:
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Eddie Izzard Makeup Guilt & ARM PIT KITTIES

I just started wearing makeup again after seeing a picture of myself and thinking damn, I look really pale and sickly. I want to sit down with someone who knows what they're doing to go over how to use the stuff to achieve the look I'm after, but I really don't know where to go for that.

I'd like to avoid a hard sell, and someone strong arming me into buying a ton of crap I don't need. Any ideas?
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