Vegetarianism

[viscousmemories]

Inspired by lisarea's comment - in a cooking thread - that she used to be a vegetarian, I thought I'd start a thread on the subject.

I read a flyer about 15 years ago that was just a list of reasons why eating meat is terrible for your health, the global economy, etc. Of course it was so long ago I don't remember many of the details, but I do remember that the points made enough sense that I decided to become a vegetarian; just as soon as I got around to it.

Well, I never got around to it, and now I don't know if I should. I found a lot of the information in Fast Food Nation pretty disturbing, but that hasn't turned me off of animal products as much as fast food. I eat a lot of chicken and I love pork, beef, lamb, etc. I also abhor the killing of animals and tend to cringe when I meet people who really get off on it, but I don't really have any moral opposition to the killing itself.

Okay I know that's a lot of issues but that's how my brain works...

[Godot]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Okay I know that's a lot of issues but that's how my brain works...

You should limit the amount of time you allow your brain to have control of your fingers, mate. With all those ideas mixed up in your post, what exactly did you want to investigate here? Without any direction for the discussion, this thread is destined to become a quagmire of conflicting ideas.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Godot

You should limit the amount of time you allow your brain to have control of your fingers, mate. With all those ideas mixed up in your post, what exactly did you want to investigate here? Without any direction for the discussion, this thread is destined to become a quagmire of conflicting ideas.

Yeah, you're right. I apologize.

My question is, "Is it immoral to use non-human animals for food?"

[Hugo Holbling]

Whether or not something is immoral depends to a large extent on which moral system you have in mind. In this particular case, consequentialist, deontological, evolutionary or virtue theories would give widely differing answers.

[Godot]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Yeah, you're right. I apologize.

No apology needed at all. Just trying to help you narrow it down to a single main point.

My question is, "Is it immoral to use non-human animals for food?"

Immoral when and under what circumstances? Always?

[Adora]

Whilst I'm sure if I became a vege I could feel a bit more warm and fuzzy about my ethics, I can't afford to. Spending money on red meat and chicken (or fish) and then thinking "Hmmm, this is a dead animal... so what?" is preferable to hideous doctors bills for the rest of my life and giving money to the "Natural Medicines" industry for vitamin supplements for the rest of my life. So if it's a choice of some animal being chopped up for me to consume, and some fuck in Utah getting rich off the fact my body is fucked, I'll choose the former.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

My question is, "Is it immoral to use non-human animals for food?"

Oh, that's easy then. The answer is "No," but that assumes that you're operating under the same, rather idiosyncratic, conception of morality that I subscribe to.

In short, and without going into all the gory details of my own ideas about ethics, cows, pigs, chickens, etc. don't get moral consideration from me because they're not capable of giving moral consideration to me.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Adora

Whilst I'm sure if I became a vege I could feel a bit more warm and fuzzy about my ethics, I can't afford to. Spending money on red meat and chicken (or fish) and then thinking "Hmmm, this is a dead animal... so what?" is preferable to hideous doctors bills for the rest of my life and giving money to the "Natural Medicines" industry for vitamin supplements for the rest of my life. So if it's a choice of some animal being chopped up for me to consume, and some fuck in Utah getting rich off the fact my body is fucked, I'll choose the former.

Whatever gave you that idea? I never got sick from not eating meat. I don't think I even lost any weight, except during a brief foray into veganism. In fact, I can't think of anyone I know who got sick from not eating meat. It's pretty simple to maintain a balanced diet without meat, even if you're not particularly well versed in nutrition. And this is without supplements or B-12 shots or whatever it is people seem to think you have to do when you give up meat. The guidelines are really very minimal, and I'd venture to guess that vegetarians as a whole are at least as healthy as meat eaters, if not healthier.

I'm sorry, but this sort of assumption really bugs me. Apart from having heard every lecture in the book myself, and having had people try to trick me into eating meat, I had a friend with a little girl who had never eaten meat, and despite the girl's excellent health, my friend had constant problems with people accusing her of child abuse, and with day care workers who took it upon themselves to give the kid some gravy or something, which just made the poor kid throw up.

As far as my own reasoning, basically, I just figured that I didn't see why I shouldn't. Being a vegetarian is really pretty easy, can be a lot cheaper, and seems like the decent thing to do, all other things being equal. I never really missed it, and didn't suffer any ill effects from it, so why not? I did slowly start eating meat again after about five or six years, but that was based primarily on convenience and frustration. (This was quite a while ago, and you couldn't even buy refried beans in a can that weren't made with lard.)

At this point, I cook for others as well as me, so I couldn't very well give it up without either doubling my cooking duties, or forcing others to be vegetarian too. And frankly, I just like cooking too much. I don't want to be on any limited diet. Not Atkins, South Beach, vegetarian, or anything else, for that matter. Food gives me pleasure in my life, and I don't feel like limiting myself in that arena.

Life is horribly horribly complicated, and almost endlessly frustrating. Most of us try to do the right thing most of the time, I'd like to think. So maybe we limit our driving, recycle what we can, follow political issues, boycott sweatshop goods, shit like that. But at the same time, we have to live in the same society as our neighbors, and this stuff sucks up our limited time and money and, basically, our lives. So it's entirely reasonable to pick your battles. You will fuck something up somewhere. You can't do everything just so. Yes, vegetarianism is environmentally responsible, healthy, and a good, solid, ethical choice for many people, and I applaud those people who've chosen that battle.

But life has to be more than just an exercise in impact engineering. I just think we're supposed to enjoy ourselves a little, too. For some people, that might mean resource-depleting day trips in the car, for some, it might mean steak or impractical clothing or lining the coffers of sundry unethical media empires.

It's just plain counterproductive to feel guilty about every single thing you do that's not entirely ethically defensible. And it's equally counterproductive to judge others who've chosen different battles than we have.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by lisarea

Whatever gave you that idea?

I have hormonal issues that mean my body has problems getting regular vitamins and minerals to all parts of my system properly. For example, even though I'm slightly lactose intolerant (I always have a runny sinus for a few hours after eating dairy products) I have to have at least 3 decent serves of dairy products a day to guarantee I have enough calcium to prevent me from getting osteoperosis when I'm older. *shrugs*

I still don't eat a lot of red meat though. I'll have lamb or beef in some form, but I don't eat regular steaks just cooked in a pan or barbeque, but that's mostly a taste preference.

[Godot]

Originally Posted by lisarea

It's pretty simple to maintain a balanced diet without meat, even if you're not particularly well versed in nutrition.

Not really. Given how many people are incapable of eating a balanced diet when they do include meat, I think you're vastly oversimplifying the issue.

And this is without supplements or B-12 shots or whatever it is people seem to think you have to do when you give up meat.

Seeing as how B12 is an essential nutrient and that meats are the only naturally occurring source of it, I think I"d say that it's something you should do if you're considering going vegan/vegetarian.

The guidelines are really very minimal, and I'd venture to guess that vegetarians as a whole are at least as healthy as meat eaters, if not healthier.

Based on what evidence and why?

[Godot]

Originally Posted by Adora

[...]I have to have at least 3 decent serves of dairy products a day to guarantee I have enough calcium to prevent me from getting osteoperosis when I'm older. *shrugs*

That is only half of the equation. To build strong bones, you also need to ensure that you obtain sufficiently enough weight-bearing exercise. Otherwise, all that dairy you consume will go to waste.

I still don't eat a lot of red meat though. I'll have lamb or beef in some form, but I don't eat regular steaks just cooked in a pan or barbeque, but that's mostly a taste preference.

I would be concerned about the amount of iron in your diet. Do you feel run down and sluggish often?

[Larry]

I would be concerned about the amount of iron in your diet. Do you feel run down and sluggish often?

I certainly do. Are you suggesting that too much iron is the main culprit for feeling this way? I've heard that the reason why people feel tired after eating a hearty Thanksgiving dinner is because of the meat, but I always thought it was due to simply overeating.

Larry

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Larry

I've heard that the reason why people feel tired after eating a hearty Thanksgiving dinner is because of the meat, but I always thought it was due to simply overeating.

I used to believe it was the tryptophan in turkey, but according to this source it's not:

But nutritionists and other experts say that the tryptophan in turkey probably won't trigger the body to produce more serotonin because tryptophan works best on an empty stomach. The tryptophan in a Thanksgiving turkey has to vie with all the other amino acids that the body is trying to use. So only part of the tryptophan makes it to the brain to help produce serotonin.

It is the whole traditional Thanksgiving meal that can produce that after-dinner lethargy. The meal is quite often heavy and high in carbohydrates -- from mashed potatoes, bread, stuffing and pie -- and your body is working hard to digest that food. Also, if you drink alcohol with your dinner, you will likely feel its sedative effect, too.

[Larry]

"Is it immoral to use non-human animals for food?"

I've never given this much thought, but I would tend to agree with what Hugo says . . .

Originally Posted by Hugo Holbling

Whether or not something is immoral depends to a large extent on which moral system you have in mind. In this particular case, consequentialist, deontological, evolutionary or virtue theories would give widely differing answers.

. . . with the added system of "relativism". Yet, even in the animal (non-human) "kingdom" itself the eating of other animals seems quite natural. Although I don't advocate cannibalism, cannibals wouldn't find it immoral to eat other humans. I'm not sure, though, if they consider eating members of their own community immoral.

Larry

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Godot

Not really. Given how many people are incapable of eating a balanced diet when they do include meat, I think you're vastly oversimplifying the issue.

Of course, you will get fewer nutrients if you eat just Cheetos and Cap'n Crunch, as opposed to eating Cheetos, Cap'n Crunch, and Slim Jims.

However, people who eat like that don't have a healthy diet, and will not have a healthy diet until they stop doing that. It's still fairly simple to maintain a balanced diet, with or without meat, but for a lot of people, it's anything but easy. It's not that they're incapable of figuring out how to adapt their diets. It's just that they don't want to. The difficulty lies in things like overdependence on processed foods, and on ignorance, both willful and otherwise. But adopting a healthy vegetarian diet is probably just about as easy as adopting a healthy omnivorous diet. The general guidelines and requirements are no more complicated than the traditional concept of a 'square meal' or the food pyramid or somesuch. People don't have a problem actually understanding these things, but with adopting them in their own lives.

Seeing as how B12 is an essential nutrient and that meats are the only naturally occurring source of it, I think I"d say that it's something you should do if you're considering going vegan/vegetarian.

It's my understanding that B12 is in eggs and dairy products as well. To me, anyway, 'vegetarian' is generally short for ovo-lacto-vegetarian, meaning that it includes eggs and dairy. Vegans, who eat no animal products at all, do require some kind of supplements, but I believe that a lot of soy milk products and so forth include B12 for just that reason. Veganism is far more difficult and complicated than standard vegetarianism, though, and it is, IMO, neither simple nor easy to adopt such a diet.

As I said, I did lose weight during the brief period I adopted a vegan diet, and I simply could not afford to lose weight at that time. I was also a teenager, and didn't want to expend the time and effort required. I'm sure it was something I could have done if I'd been willing and able, but I chose to maintain some degree of simplicity in my life. I still wanted to hang out with my friends, rather than staying home to make soy cheese and stuff like that.

Based on what evidence and why?

That's why I said 'I'd venture to guess.'

It's based on the fact that vegetarians have chosen to adopt a certain diet, for whatever reason, and as such, have put at least a minimum of time and effort into that diet and thinking about what they eat. It's also based on the fact that they don't eat Kentucky Fried Chicken or Big Macs.

There are studies, though:

Health benefits of being a vegetarian

From this page:

A Vegetarian Diet Improves Health
Research has shown that a well-balanced low-fat high-fibre vegetarian diet is healthier for you and your family.

As a vegetarian you could:

Reduce your risk from certain cancers by up to 40%
Decrease the possibility of heart disease by over 30%
Restrict your chance of suffering from kidney and gall stones, diet-related diabetes and high blood pressure.
Lower your cholesterol levels and reduce health problems related to obesity.
Avoid fatal diseases such as nvCJD, Ecoli and food poisoning.

(And the bibliography.)

Here's another report from the same site.

Now, this information is from vegetarian organizations, and I haven't followed up on the research or anything, largely because my assumptions aren't entirely based on that, and because I'm not really well-versed enough in nutrition subjects to be able to look at it with a critical eye. I'm sure you can find information to counter this if you'd like. And I'm sure that you can produce studies or extrapolate that such things as cutting down on meat consumption without eliminating it, increasing the fruit and vegetables in a diet, and other similar things could be equally beneficial in many cases.

My guess is based on the simple fact that people who are vegetarians have necessarily controlled their diet in some way. And I'll guess that, overall, those who control their diets in any way are going to be healthier than those who don't.

My point is simply that the common misperceptions that vegetarians are weak, sickly, anemic, and brittle-boned as a result of their diets are incorrect.

[Godot]

All is cool lisa, just making you work a little. The problem with diets is that there's pretty much equal amounts of supportive and contrary evidence for just about every approach. You just need to find one that you can live with and that meets your needs adequately.

I do take issue with the statement that "[...] the simple fact that people who are vegetarians have necessarily controlled their diet in some way" is in fact, a simple fact. The truth of the matter is that vegetarians have made a conscious decision to limit or eliminate meat/meat products from their diet as best they can. Yes, they have controlled their diest, but that doesn't include having done so in an intelligent manner. I have come in contact with more vegetarians that simply eat the same as they did before, except that they took the steak off of their plates. They haven't done anything to their diet apart form removing the meat. That just isn't unhealthy, but downright dangerous.

[Godot]

Originally Posted by Larry

I certainly do. Are you suggesting that too much iron is the main culprit for feeling this way? I've heard that the reason why people feel tired after eating a hearty Thanksgiving dinner is because of the meat, but I always thought it was due to simply overeating.

Larry

Not at all, Larry. Iron deficiency is a fairly serious condition that can adversely affect your quality of life. One of the known issues with a vegetarian diet is a difficulty in obtaining sufficient amounts of bio-available iron. The best source of dietary bio-available iron is in meat. You can consume just as much iron from vegetable sources, it just isn't going to be absorbed as readily.
Since the main function of iron in the body is the role it plays in hemoglobin, a deficiency of iron will likely lead to anemia. One of the hallmark characteristics of anemia is being tired and run down, bereft of energy on a frequent basis. Sure, this is a rather ad-hoc approach, but it can be a useful indicator as to whether or not you should ocnsult a physicina and have yourself tested. Advice over the internet is scarcely a replacement for primary care.

Tom answered your other point regarding Thanksgiving turkey rather well, so I won't bother.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Adora

I have hormonal issues that mean my body has problems getting regular vitamins and minerals to all parts of my system properly. For example, even though I'm slightly lactose intolerant (I always have a runny sinus for a few hours after eating dairy products) I have to have at least 3 decent serves of dairy products a day to guarantee I have enough calcium to prevent me from getting osteoperosis when I'm older. *shrugs*

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't have the physical problems with calcium, but I do generally think milk is a little gross by itself, and too much dairy at once just makes me feel woodgy in an entirely psychosomatic way.

Have you tried non-dairy sources of calcium at all? You're not lucky enough to like kale, are you? Off the top of my head, that's the first thing that sprung to mind.

Oh. OH! Look. I found something:

Sources of calcium

I know some people also take Tums or something as a calcium supplement, but I don't know much more about it than that.

I still don't eat a lot of red meat though. I'll have lamb or beef in some form, but I don't eat regular steaks just cooked in a pan or barbeque, but that's mostly a taste preference.

For a really long while after I started eating meat again, I'd just eat mostly vegetarian as I always had, and then, every now and again, I'd get an obscenely huge steak and eat it practically raw. I seriously didn't have the first idea about how to cook meat, so that was mostly just a function of my own incompetence.

Since then, though, I've learned to incorporate meat a little better, which is a good thing. Steaks you can eat like that are not cheap.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by lisarea

Sources of calcium

Sample menu from that site:

Sample one day's meal plan to meet the RNI of 700 mg for an adult
Breakfast: Muesli=14 mg; Soya milk, unfortified=15 mg
Lunch: 2 slices of brown bread toast=140 mg; Baked beans (200g or 8oz) =90 mg
Evening meal: Tofu (60g) with broccoli (95g)=376 mg; Brown rice, boiled (165g)=7 mg
Total calcium intake=742 mg

I could power my Chevy truck off the gas I would produce eating that way.

I can get that much calcium in one glass of milk and two slices of cheese.

Steaks you can eat like that are not cheap.

They are if you buy a side of pasture fed beef from a rancher like I did; total cost averaged out to $2.19 a pound (including processing), and included lots of lean hamburger, roasts, and lots of melt-in-your-mouth steaks.


Warren

[Adora]

That is only half of the equation. To build strong bones, you also need to ensure that you obtain sufficiently enough weight-bearing exercise. Otherwise, all that dairy you consume will go to waste.

I do that too.

I would be concerned about the amount of iron in your diet. Do you feel run down and sluggish often?

Define "often"? Since my sleep patterns are rather erratic, it's hard to tell the difference between general lack-of-sleepness and other things (like general laziness). I eat red meat at least 3 times a week though, so I don't know how that translates to iron intake. I also eat a lot of greens, so *shrug*.

Have you tried non-dairy sources of calcium at all? You're not lucky enough to like kale, are you?

If you're talking about that abomination unto nature which is 'Soy Milk'... I'd rather cut my tastebuds off. I've never heard of kale. What is it?

Personally, I like the taste of real milk (not full-cream mind you. That just tastes like fat and water. Always trim milk), real yoghurt and cheese far too much to give them up anyway.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Adora

If you're talking about that abomination unto nature which is 'Soy Milk'... I'd rather cut my tastebuds off. I've never heard of kale. What is it?

Kale reminds me a bit of milkweed, but it tastes like dirt to me, like a lot of veggies do (to me anyway). I gave up eating dirt at age 3.

Here's some that really looks appetizing:

Yum!

Personally, I like the taste of real milk (not full-cream mind you. That just tastes like fat and water. Always trim milk), real yoghurt and cheese far too much to give them up anyway.

If I'm going to drink milk, I prefer whole milk (full-cream to you, but homogenized so the cream is mixed throughout).


Warren

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Sample menu from that site:
I could power my Chevy truck off the gas I would produce eating that way.

I can get that much calcium in one glass of milk and two slices of cheese.

Well, shitfuck. No wonder I don't know what you're talking about. I pasted the WRONG LINK. Here it is for reals this time:

Calcium sources.

(Am I missing something, or does this site not list the serving sizes?)

At any rate, I was just trying to provide a list of alternate sources of calcium for the lactose intolerant. I recognize and have made it clear that veganism is a big undertaking that I don't recommend to any but the most dedicated to the concept.

Hrm. I was wondering about the serving sizes, and came across this at http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/calcium.htm:

When you realize that there is as much calcium in 4 ounces of firm tofu or 3/4 cups of collard greens as there is in one cup of cow's milk, it is easy to see why groups of people who do not drink cow's milk still have strong bones and teeth.

So, maybe dairy products aren't the most efficient source, even. Or at least the alternatives aren't quite as odious as they seem.

[Scotty]

I just use Tums.

-Scott

[Lauri D]

vm:

"Is it immoral to use non-human animals for food?"

My response (with the caveat, as Hugo pointed out, that it depends largely on what moral system is in play) is "No." In part for the reason Adam pointed out.

I would also say that it's not immoral to use human animals for food, either.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I just use Tums.

I'm probably calcium deficient then because I haven't taken more than about a dozen antacid tablets in the past five years, plus I don't do much of anything that stresses the bones.


Warren