Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Study Hall

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #326  
Old 01-06-2012, 08:52 PM
Goliath's Avatar
Goliath Goliath is offline
select custom_user_title from user_info where username='Goliath';
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Gender: Male
Posts: MMDCCVII
Images: 1
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
I'm convinced that both K--12 and higher education (or, as some administrators and educrats like saying, K--16 education..every time I hear that, my right eye twitches and I get the urge to stab something) in this country can only be fixed with massive societal changes.
Several years of researching and discussing education has convinced me of the same thing, and I don't have the benefit of your inside perspective.

It's really going to take a startover from scratch
Unless it's a literal, holy-shit-everything's-anarchy start over, though, there are still going to be tons of K--12 teachers out there that genuinely don't give a shit about what they're doing (and some that do, don't get me wrong).

Any gradual change has to start at universities, since the vast majority of credentialed K--12 teachers tend to get education degrees first. However, within many universities, schools/colleges of education hold a lot of political power. Short of some huge change from above (eg laws--either federal or state--pertaining to universities that essentially say "abolish your school of education within the next X years or you won't get any more government funding"), I don't realistically see how any ed school is going to want to inject any meaningful intellectual content into their curriculum.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
Godliness is next to impossible.
Therefore, cleanliness is next to impossible.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Lone Ranger (01-06-2012)
  #327  
Old 01-06-2012, 08:56 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCDLXXXI
Images: 523
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goliath View Post
It's even more vicious in that most (or, at the very least, many) education degrees are given to students that, to be blunt, aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, and who often actively resist any kind of rigor or abstract thinking (there are bright education majors out there who genuinely love learning, but in my experience, they're a small minority). For example, in mid and upper-division undergraduate math courses, the students who whine the most about "is this gonna be on the test? "when am I ever going to use this?" etc are the math education majors....
Sadly, I can say much the same regarding Biology Education Majors. All too often, the worst students I've had to deal with were planning to go on to teach Biology.

In one case, I had a student who had just barely managed to squeak out a passing grade (a "D") in one of my Introductory Biology classes ask me if I'd write her a recommendation. I told her, in all honesty, that she probably didn't want a recommendation from me. She told me that she needed a recommendation from me, because I was her Biology instructor, and she was seeking a degree in Biology Education.

In the recommendation letter, I said something to the equivalent of: "For goodness' sake, don't hire this person; she will make a terrible educator."


Last I heard, she was teaching at a high school ...
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 01-06-2012, 09:37 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Apparently, from what I have heard from my niece, nephew and family friend who are education majors, they will receive substantial assistance in paying back their student loans once they become certified teachers as well (not sure how that works, or if they are passing on misinformation, but that's three students). That's a hell of an incentive right there if it's accurate information.
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old 01-06-2012, 09:42 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCDLXXXI
Images: 523
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

I took out Federally-subsidized loans when I was in college, to pay for books and whatnot. I was told that I wouldn't have to pay them back if I taught in a public elementary or high school after graduation.
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (01-06-2012)
  #330  
Old 01-06-2012, 09:56 PM
Goliath's Avatar
Goliath Goliath is offline
select custom_user_title from user_info where username='Goliath';
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Gender: Male
Posts: MMDCCVII
Images: 1
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Don't you usually have to teach for X number of years within the state in which you got your degree in order to get the student loan forgiveness, though?
__________________
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
Godliness is next to impossible.
Therefore, cleanliness is next to impossible.
Reply With Quote
  #331  
Old 01-06-2012, 09:59 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCDLXXXI
Images: 523
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Yeah, my understanding was that if I agreed to teach at a public elementary or high school for 5 years, my student loans would be forgiven.
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 01-06-2012, 10:01 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Hell of an incentive. Put in your 5 years or whatever, then get the hell out of dodge with a degree that can be used to tick off the degree box, and no student loan debt
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Lone Ranger (01-06-2012)
  #333  
Old 01-06-2012, 10:45 PM
Demimonde's Avatar
Demimonde Demimonde is offline
an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
Posts: VMMCDLXI
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 28
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

The rules have changed a bit. For loan forgiveness, you must teach at a Title 1 school for five years and it will forgive at most $15,000. These schools are low income with a majority of at-risk students which are typically under-funded and under-achieving. They are some of the toughest schools for any professional teachers to work in, let alone a recent grad.

If you look at it financially, that is $3,000 a year added to your paycheck but you are working in much more difficult conditions, often for less money. Especially when you consider out-of-pocket expenses teachers will pay themselves so that the students have the resources they need. (Every teacher I know has to do this in some capacity. In Title 1's it is just extreme.)

Burnout rate for new teachers is three years anyway, so many don't reach the five year mark. I don't find it much of an incentive, personally. Especially for young inexperienced teachers who are starting out with hopes to build a career. Those I know who have tried it end up severely disillusioned and jaded right at the start. I only know of one person who I expect to finish, she is entering her fourth year now. She is also a rare person indeed.

I think the program does more damage than help, personally. People going into these schools with the wrong motivations and jumping ship when they realize it isn't worth it. That sucks for the kids and hurts real education professionals who are there for the right reasons.

ETA: I went to double check the amount of the cap and was stunned that they increased it since last I checked.
:stunned:

To $17,500.
:brooding:

Fed Student Aid
__________________
:boobkicker:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (01-06-2012), Doctor X (01-12-2012), Goliath (01-10-2012), Kael (01-06-2012), LadyShea (01-06-2012), Nullifidian (01-12-2012), SR71 (01-08-2012), The Lone Ranger (01-07-2012)
  #334  
Old 01-06-2012, 11:22 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Title 1 isn't always tough.

My son's Title 1 school has smart boards, iPads, music, grant funded after school programs, a dedicated reading coach, a dedicated PE coach, etc. etc.
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 01-08-2012, 12:38 PM
ceptimus's Avatar
ceptimus ceptimus is offline
puzzler
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: XVDCCCII
Images: 28
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Grades should be pinned to percentiles. If you're in the top 10% of your year you get an A, the next 20% get a B and so on.

Each year, the politicians want to claim that their education policies give better exam results than in previous years. In the UK, it's gotten to the point where it's normal to get straight A grades, so the universities and employers now have to compare how many A* (A-star) grades a student/candidate has. Presumably these A* grades will eventually become commonplace too, and then a new A** grade will be needed. More likely. a whole new exam system or baccalaureate will have to be introduced to replace the now discredited system.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (01-08-2012)
  #336  
Old 01-08-2012, 02:25 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Exactly ceptimus. Everyone is outstanding so now you have to create a new scale of how outstanding each person is in relation to other people. Then, everyone moves to top of that scale for whatever reasons and you have to make a different scale.

Grades simply have no meaning in this context.

When I was in high school, our grades were determined by a points system. If you got 90-100% of the total points available you got an A, 80-90 a B, and so on. We knew what the points available were going in- a weekly quiz might be worth 10 points, a unit exam worth 100, a research paper worth 100 (broken down by content, language use, correct cites/footnotes, etc.)- and we could track our grades using simple math.

There was no asking, begging, or arguing to be awarded a better grade- though some teachers offered extra credit projects, especially for those on the boundaries. So if I was running an 88%, I could write a paper or do a book report or something to boost me to an A.

This seems, to me, the mostly honest way to do things. Yes, there is some subjectivity in awarding points for essays and writing, but there were places to make that up and they were balanced out by objective measures like right or wrong answers, formatting, and discussion participation.

Last edited by LadyShea; 01-08-2012 at 02:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #337  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:59 AM
seebs seebs is offline
God Made Me A Skeptic
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: VMMCCXCVI
Images: 1
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

So, the appearance is that the cost per student of providing college is sharply up. Why? Where is the money going? Teachers aren't going around wearing 8 pounds of solid gold jewelry. Tuitions are going up substantially faster than general inflation, so far as I can tell. In the late 80s, early 90s, St. Olaf (the college I happen to know about) had tuition of around $12k per year. Now it's around $46k per year. That's nearly a factor of four increase. So far as I can tell, total inflation over that period ought to double prices. So...

What's happening? What's the money going into?
__________________
Hear me / and if I close my mind in fear / please pry it open
See me / and if my face becomes sincere / beware
Hold me / and when I start to come undone / stitch me together
Save me / and when you see me strut / remind me of what left this outlaw torn
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Waluigi (01-09-2012)
  #338  
Old 01-09-2012, 12:35 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Campus police forces? Pepper Spray?
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Waluigi (01-09-2012), Watser? (01-09-2012)
  #339  
Old 01-09-2012, 02:51 PM
Kael's Avatar
Kael Kael is offline
the internet says I'm right
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Western U.S.
Gender: Male
Posts: VMCDXLV
Blog Entries: 11
Images: 23
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

My understanding is that federal and state subsidies have been going steadily down over that time, so stuff that used to be paid for with them has to be paid for by tuition. I don't know if that accounts for all the increase, though. Sometimes I get the feeling that an administrator somewhere just wants to see how much they can crank it up before significant numbers of students stop attending.
__________________
For Science!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (01-09-2012)
  #340  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:02 PM
Goliath's Avatar
Goliath Goliath is offline
select custom_user_title from user_info where username='Goliath';
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Gender: Male
Posts: MMDCCVII
Images: 1
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
So, the appearance is that the cost per student of providing college is sharply up. Why?
Lots of reasons, the biggest being year-over-year drops in state funding along with increases in health insurance costs. Some of it is also due to an excess of overpaid, unnecessary, bean-counting administrators. Of course, some of it is also due to athletics (for most schools, athletics is a money sink, not a money maker).
__________________
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
Godliness is next to impossible.
Therefore, cleanliness is next to impossible.
Reply With Quote
  #341  
Old 01-09-2012, 09:27 PM
Demimonde's Avatar
Demimonde Demimonde is offline
an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
Posts: VMMCDLXI
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 28
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Title 1 isn't always tough.

My son's Title 1 school has smart boards, iPads, music, grant funded after school programs, a dedicated reading coach, a dedicated PE coach, etc. etc.
Perhaps I am biased because of the situation in the Metroplex. We have such a population density that Title 1 schools are often big holding areas for the at risk demographics. The suburbs are somewhat better, but typically just have the same issues on a smaller scale.

In Contra's district, the focus has been on closing and consolidating the poor performing schools into mega Title 1 schools which are over-crowded and unequipped for the number of students. It is statistical manipulation to show improvement on the district level by number of academically recognized schools.

I am glad Kiddo's school is not like that.
__________________
:boobkicker:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (01-09-2012)
  #342  
Old 01-09-2012, 09:52 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Yes, rural vs urban is bound to make an enormous difference.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Demimonde (01-09-2012)
  #343  
Old 01-09-2012, 11:11 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
It is statistical manipulation to show improvement on the district level by number of academically recognized schools.
:fuming: Yes, because that will help those kids learn more.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Demimonde (01-09-2012)
  #344  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:28 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCDLXXXI
Images: 523
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

One thing that particularly worries me is that as state and federal funding for education is slashed and tuitions skyrocket, education at the better 4-year schools becomes more and more something that only the sons and daughters of the wealthy can afford.

Or, if you aren't fortunate enough to have been born wealthy, and you manage to get into a really good 4-year school, you're going to have accrued a mountain of debt by the time you graduate. It's not all that unusual nowadays for kids to graduate college with $100,000 of debt or more.


I was fortunate. Though I came from a poor background and my mother literally didn't pay a dime for my education, I was able to attend an excellent 4-year school. That was because I qualified for lots of grants and scholarships that covered most of my expenses. Many of those are probably no longer available. I did take out some loans, but only small ones to cover miscellaneous expenses. Plus, I worked part-time on campus. If I were 17 years old today, I'm not sure that I'd have the option of going to such a good school.
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
ceptimus (01-10-2012), chunksmediocrites (01-10-2012), Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Crumb (01-10-2012), Goliath (01-10-2012), Kael (01-10-2012), LadyShea (01-10-2012)
  #345  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:29 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Zombie NCLB still stalking our schools « Rethinking Schools Blog
Quote:
NCLB’s mandate to test every kid every year in every grade and measure the results against benchmarks that no real schools had ever met was never a credible “accountability” system. It was an enabling mechanism for creating a narrative of public school failure and imposing sanctions that were not educational strategies at all, but political strategies designed to promote privatization and market reform.
Quote:
This approach predictably produced profiteering and educational chaos. “This reads like our business plan,” said the CEO of Pearson, Inc., when he first saw the plans for NCLB. It’s been a gold-rush decade for textbook and test publishers.
Follow the fucking money

Last edited by LadyShea; 01-10-2012 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Crumb (01-10-2012), Goliath (01-10-2012), Kael (01-10-2012), The Lone Ranger (01-10-2012)
  #346  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:33 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCDLXXXI
Images: 523
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Every public school teacher I've ever spoken to about it thinks that NCLB is a simply terrible idea. ....
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Goliath (01-10-2012), Kael (01-10-2012), LadyShea (01-10-2012)
  #347  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:41 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

It was a terrible idea and has been a terrible reality for a decade now. How can anyone look at the last decade and say "This is a successful piece of legislation right here!"
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Goliath (01-10-2012), Kael (01-10-2012), The Lone Ranger (01-10-2012)
  #348  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:52 PM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCLXXXI
Images: 2
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

I watched a show recently about education in Finnland, which is generally reckoned to be some damned fine education. The salient point seemed to be that teachers are not greatly constrained by a syllabus or by the methods they are allowed to employ. Watching the classroom in action the differences as compared to typical American education processes were apparent.

I had a teacher once who I believe had a teaching style that was very much in line with the Finns, and I learned so much in that one year, compared to other years, I believe he had a truly profound impact on my development as a person. The downside is that most other teachers seemed kind of boring after that.

Another of my half assed theories is that we should go with much smaller textbooks. Who the hell do we think we're kidding having kids haul around texts half or more of whose volume will go unread and untaught? I always found it discouraging to see all the material in these monsters, knowing it was impossible to learn that much in the time I would use the book.
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
ceptimus (01-10-2012), Contrapposto (02-05-2012), LadyShea (01-10-2012)
  #349  
Old 01-10-2012, 07:01 PM
LadyShea's Avatar
LadyShea LadyShea is offline
I said it, so I feel it, dick
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
Posts: XXXMDCCCXCVII
Images: 41
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Another of my half assed theories is that we should go with much smaller textbooks. Who the hell do we think we're kidding having kids haul around texts half or more of whose volume will go unread and untaught? I always found it discouraging to see all the material in these monsters, knowing it was impossible to learn that much in the time I would use the book.
Not only that, but with so much material to cover, it's just a skim along the surface of all of it, with no depth. Also, it's all hodgepodge and disconnected, jumping from here to there and back in time, space, and context. There's no cohesion or even correlation between social studies and science and math and language in the American education model.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Contrapposto (02-05-2012), Dragar (01-10-2012), livius drusus (01-11-2012), SR71 (01-10-2012)
  #350  
Old 01-10-2012, 07:14 PM
SR71's Avatar
SR71 SR71 is offline
Stoic Derelict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Dustbin of History
Gender: Male
Posts: VDCLXXXI
Images: 2
Default Re: Fucking education! How does it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Not only that, but with so much material to cover, it's just a skim along the surface of all of it, with no depth. Also, it's all hodgepodge and disconnected, jumping from here to there and back in time, space, and context. There's no cohesion or even correlation between social studies and science and math and language in the American education model.
Yes, wow, exactly, thank you! :wave:
__________________
Chained out, like a sitting duck just waiting for the fall _Cage the Elephant
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
LadyShea (01-10-2012)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Study Hall


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.31672 seconds with 14 queries