Ashcroft on the hotseat

D. Scarlatti · #1 04-28-2008, 02:47 AM

Petra · #2 04-28-2008, 01:11 PM

Niiiice.

Great question, Elsinora!

And what the hell was that response about forcing and pouring? If someone is tied up and having water "poured" into their throats and nostrils, I'm pretty sure they're not simply receiving a pleasant cup of refreshment at their own request. They are being "forced" to take water into their lungs, painfully, even if it were carefully being poured from polished silver teapots, by polite society ladies who learned the art at proper finishing schools!

The disconnect is mindboggling.

Watser? · #3 04-28-2008, 01:16 PM

I'm pretty sure those Japanese didn't think they were doing anything wrong either.

LadyShea · #4 04-28-2008, 02:13 PM

Gawd is he insane.

Is it possible they could be tried for war crimes? How does that happen?

Adam · #5 04-28-2008, 02:25 PM

I think my favorite part of that entire diary is the bit where Ashcroft refers to the Senate reservations to the UN Convention Against Torture, which are abso-fucking-lutely key to his argument that waterboarding does not violate any treaties to which the US is party, as "random legal facts" that he does not "have time to go around memorizing".

freemonkey · #6 04-28-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Asshat on the Hotseat

Uthgar the Brazen · #7 04-28-2008, 03:14 PM

Good question.

I'd have tossed all the show 'n tell kiddies into a vat of something unpleasant, though.

yguy · #8 04-28-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petra

And what the hell was that response about forcing and pouring?

My guess is that "forcing" refers to water injected into the respiratory system at something more than atmospheric pressure. Why the distinction is meaningful I couldn't say as of now.

The more salient point is that the Jap in question wasn't defending his own country, but rather those who held his country in bondage.

Crumb · #9 04-28-2008, 04:40 PM

The act itself is torture yguy, its goal is irrelevant.

yguy · #10 04-28-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumb

The act itself is torture yguy, its goal is irrelevant.

As is so often the case, you have it exactly backwards.

Watser? · #11 04-28-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petra

And what the hell was that response about forcing and pouring?

My guess is that "forcing" refers to water injected into the respiratory system at something more than atmospheric pressure. Why the distinction is meaningful I couldn't say as of now.

The more salient point is that the Jap in question wasn't defending his own country, but rather those who held his country in bondage.

That's the best you can come up with?

First of all as Crumb mentioned: the goal is irrelevant. The end doesn't justify the means.

Second, it isn't even true. You are not defending your country. The war in Iraq was a blatant war of aggression against a country that had not harmed the US and was not a threat. You can't go attack countries on the other side of the world on flimsy excuses and still come up with the old saw that you are only defending your country.

godfry n. glad · #12 04-28-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yguy

The more salient point is that the Jap in question wasn't defending his own country, but rather those who held his country in bondage.

Huh???

Who held Japan in bondage?

Ymir's blood · #13 04-28-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Quote:

Originally Posted by yguy

The more salient point is that the Jap in question wasn't defending his own country, but rather those who held his country in bondage.

Huh???

Who held Japan in bondage?

It was a bunch of tentacled aliens or demons, IIRC.

Brimshack · #14 04-28-2008, 05:30 PM

Gee, another advocate of torture who thinks HIS cause is just. It's a good thing that rationale is so rare. Can you imagine the suffering if every stupid sonofabitch with no morals whatsoever could invoke that justification for their favorite torturers?

yguy · #15 04-28-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ymir's blood

Quote:

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Quote:

Originally Posted by yguy

The more salient point is that the Jap in question wasn't defending his own country, but rather those who held his country in bondage.

Huh???

Who held Japan in bondage?

It was a bunch of tentacled aliens or demons, IIRC.

Either the Japanese were held in bondage by Tojo et al or they were barbarous, murderous savages from skin to marrow who only became "civilized" under duress.

Take your pick. <shrug>

Watser? · #16 04-28-2008, 05:46 PM

So what's your excuse? Bush made us do it?

Oh yeah, we was only defending our country against our ever expanding range of enemies.

D. Scarlatti · #17 04-28-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ytroll

Why the distinction is meaningful I couldn't say as of now.

You'll figure it out, no matter how many intuitive leaps and divine interventions it takes.

Ari · #18 04-28-2008, 06:06 PM

This is why rational thought needs to enter into more demonstrations. No one made their point so well or effortlessly than a few choice questions to a red faced screaming speaker.

Anymore demonstrations seem to be preaching (screaming through a microphone) to the choir, and while not bad, I think it could stand for improvement.

Crumb · #19 04-28-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watser?

The war in Iraq was a blatant war of aggression against a country that had not harmed the US and was not a threat. You can't go attack countries on the other side of the world on flimsy excuses and still come up with the old saw that you are only defending your country.

This is exactly why motivation for torture is irrelevant. Any moron can convince themselves that their bad actions were motivated by good intentions. Good intentions can not justify bad actions. Road to hell... etc

ZEZOZE · #20 04-28-2008, 06:19 PM

what's so good about this? he got paid 15000 bucks to listen to hippies whine and townie sheep cheer. what was accomplished with this question? this guy gets paid to take blame and accept applause. he won't change. he was paid to take the flak. he isn't going to change his mind.

what made all of you feel so good to see how ineffectual and powerless you really are?

i'm surprised he didn't give it a 'see ya chumps' at the end of it all...

seriously...lol.

Brimshack · #21 04-28-2008, 06:30 PM

Since you did say "all of you" ITSOZ, could you please explain to me what it is that I personally posted that leads you to believe I feel good about the posted link?

Ari · #22 04-28-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InTheServiceOfZeke

what's so good about this? he got paid 15000 bucks to listen to hippies whine

We are totally saps, we should get paid to listen to you whine.

He was paid by Republicans, so basically the hippies got to complain and take him down a notch for free.

yguy · #23 04-28-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumb

motivation for torture is irrelevant.

Then you also believe motivation for killing is irrelevant.

Right?

ZEZOZE · #24 04-28-2008, 06:41 PM

sorry Brimshack...you are correct on my sloppy accusation. I was referring to the thankers. i should clarify that from now on...

Ari- the hippies took him down a notch? lol...he dismissed them. he got angry at them, like they were children. he got to exercise some power over them. he didn't change his mind.

the only people that saw him go down a notch are the people who think the same, just as those who saw him being picked on do...nothing changed.

Ari · #25 04-28-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InTheServiceOfZeke

Ari- the hippies took him down a notch? lol...he dismissed them. he got angry at them, like they were children. he got to exercise some power over them. he didn't change his mind.

Never said he changed his mind.
Yes, he got angry at at least a few of them, they caused him to lose his cool and to stammer, I don't see that as "exercising some power over them" it seems the other way around.

The ones that he made jokes at, they 'failed.' The one that he got red faced about succeeded (as much as one can succeed at a speech like this).

Ok, I listened to you whine about hippies, where's my $15,000 or a sammich?