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  #51  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:55 AM
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Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by yguy View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Does that apply too ...
That's another retarded question...

...and since I know strike three is in the hopper, I think I'll just go ahead and call you outa there. Happy trails, meathead.
I had forgotten about these playground tactics. Is this where I say "is not!", or should it be "my daddy can beat up your daddy?"
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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You self identify as an anarcho-capitalist, and a few minutes with a search engine can yield plenty of thoughtful and detailed critiques of anarcho-capitalism, and libertarianism. And what you don't agree with: taxes, government, laws, and state power- these are not minor aspects of society, but rather central pillars of how almost every society is constructed. In place of all these things you put "free market capitalism"- unburdened by regulation of any kind, guided by enlightened self interest- that is, the acquisition of personal property and wealth. What happens to the poor, the infirm, the have nots? What happens to the people who live downstream from the widget factory? What happens to enforcement of civil rights, access to medicine, access to education? What happens to fire departments, roads, libraries? In the anarcho-capitalist world, you get a solid "good luck with that," and maybe a lecture on bootstrap levitation.

So when people have negative responses to such a proposal, is it really so surprising?
Sometimes you do get some sort of plan, but it always seems to rely on the magic of the free market to completely sort things out. It is like any possible detrimental effect of libertarianism will evaporate the moment this ebil gubmint goes away. I am sure it would work too - eventually. Some sort of balance will undoubtedly be found at one point, but there are two problems:

1: This balance is likely to be in the form of cartels deciding how things are going to be between themselves, with all decisions geared towards their own self-interest and not that of the majority. At this stage you have basically reverted to a form of feudalism.

2: This balance could happen after a LOT of damage is done first, and if we go to an extreme scenario, the balance will simply not be required any more because too much damage was done. Without regulation forcing people from not doing damage to the common good, people will do such damage for private gain, even if it is detrimental to them in the long run. That behaviour is not caused b the rules.
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  #53  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:54 AM
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I watched a TV program presented by Jeremy Paxman about the building of the British Empire back in the days of unrestricted free trade.

This free trade included the slave trade to work sugar plantations in the British West Indies. The free traders who did that were 'good Christians' who rationalised their brutal treatment of the slaves by classifying them as less than human. Many slaves did not survive the journey in filthy overcrowded conditions from Africa to the Caribbean. Those that did survive then had an expected lifetime of three years. The plantation owners grew exceedingly rich and lived in vast showy palaces.

The free trade also included the selling of opium to the Chinese to pay for the export of tea and other Chinese goods that were wanted back in Britain. The opium was produced in a vast industrialised manner back in India, which had been conquered and made part of the empire already.

The Chinese government were naturally unhappy that a large proportion of their population were being turned into drug addicts by the British. When the Chinese seized and destroyed some opium shipments, the British said this was a violation of free trade. The British then used their overwhelming military superiority (steam driven iron gunboats against Chinese junks) to destroy the Chinese navy. They captured Hong Kong and other Chinese territory to use as bases to handle the opium imports.

The main company that controlled the opium trade, Jardine Matheson, is still active now. Opium trading continued into the twentieth century. Today, Jardine House in Hong Kong is referred to by the locals as 'The House of a Thousand Arseholes' due to the shape of its windows.

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  #54  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:52 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
You self identify as an anarcho-capitalist, and a few minutes with a search engine can yield plenty of thoughtful and detailed critiques of anarcho-capitalism, and libertarianism. And what you don't agree with: taxes, government, laws, and state power- these are not minor aspects of society, but rather central pillars of how almost every society is constructed. In place of all these things you put "free market capitalism"- unburdened by regulation of any kind, guided by enlightened self interest- that is, the acquisition of personal property and wealth. What happens to the poor, the infirm, the have nots? What happens to the people who live downstream from the widget factory? What happens to enforcement of civil rights, access to medicine, access to education? What happens to fire departments, roads, libraries? In the anarcho-capitalist world, you get a solid "good luck with that," and maybe a lecture on bootstrap levitation.

So when people have negative responses to such a proposal, is it really so surprising?
Why should life be "fair"?

Life is not meant to be fair,some are smarter,faster,good looking,hardworker the vast majority are a bunch of lazy dumb

In a egualitarian country everyone is keep down at the same level at the worst idiot,drunk-addicted,heroine-abuser double IQ high school dropout useless idiot

yeah we don't have equality of opportunities but this is a feature of capitalism not a bug(why should I work more to pass more wealth to my son\daughter if inheritance is abolished?if you know anything about HUMAN NATURE you'll realize that people put their children over other people,expecially if these people are of other nationality or race),but the fact there are rags to riches stories like J.K. ROWLING prove a thing .. you have ZERO excuses if you are not rich because you can do it and I can give you a long list of people amassing a vast amount of wealth starting with nothing.....maybe you need to study 20 hours instead of 6 and work 2 jobs instead of one but it is all your fucking fault if you don't realize "woo my situation is crap so i need to work more and harder in order to compensate" instead to go OCCUPY WALL STREET!!!!! with Michael Moore and Niam CHimsky because your Mickey Mouse degree in useless crap like history,philosophy,liberal arts and David Beckham studies are worthing only a dead end jobs at McDonalds(no matter how you put it: it is morally wrong coerce Bill Gates at gun-point to pay for your college END OF STORY)

ONLY with FREEDOM you can have prosperity because in a capitalist system there is onlyproven way to become rich: have a good idea and sell it on the market place.Work in a steady job, cut back expenditures and save in the bank. Or Be an inventor. Invent a something that everyone needs and patent your invention. Then licence out your invention and watch the royalties roll in.

You have no excuses
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  #55  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

That's right! If everyone was as talented and hard working as J K Rowling, then we could all be millionaires by selling each other our stories about young witches and wizards.

Unfortunately, there wouldn't be any poor people left to build houses or cars, grow crops, mine minerals, work in restaurants, etc. etc.

So we wouldn't have anything to spend our money on, and we'd probably starve to death or similar. We'd die wealthy though!

It doesn't make any difference if some of the wealthy people make their money by, say, managing a ship building company. You still need some workers to actually build the ships, make the steel for the ships and so on.

The idea that everyone can be wealthy is self-evidently ludicrous to anyone who spends a few minutes actually thinking about it.
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  #56  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Why should life be "fair"?

Life is not meant to be fair,some are smarter,faster,good looking,hardworker the vast majority are a bunch of lazy dumb
If life is unfair anyway and you have no answer other than 'tough titty', why should anyone respect your precious property rights? Maybe some people are better pickpockets than you, or better at gathering a group of gunfighters and coming to your house and taking over.
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  #57  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

Niam CHimsky
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  #58  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

So your entire philosophy boils down to "I am ok, so fuck everyone else!"
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  #59  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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ONLY with FREEDOM you can have prosperity because in a capitalist system there is onlyproven way to become rich: have a good idea and sell it on the market place.Work in a steady job, cut back expenditures and save in the bank. Or Be an inventor. Invent a something that everyone needs and patent your invention. Then licence out your invention and watch the royalties roll in.
Or just live on your parents money and don't do anything at all! You really are as dumb as they come, aren't you?
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  #60  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

Now now Stormlight, he already explained that the reason he does not do so well academically is because of commie liberal marxist professors. In a true Libertarian academic environment he would have already purchased straight A's in the free open market.
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  #61  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's right! If everyone was as talented and hard working as J K Rowling, then we could all be millionaires by selling each other our stories about young witches and wizards.

Unfortunately, there wouldn't be any poor people left to build houses or cars, grow crops, mine minerals, work in restaurants, etc. etc.

So we wouldn't have anything to spend our money on, and we'd probably starve to death or similar. We'd die wealthy though!

It doesn't make any difference if some of the wealthy people make their money by, say, managing a ship building company. You still need some workers to actually build the ships, make the steel for the ships and so on.

The idea that everyone can be wealthy is self-evidently ludicrous to anyone who spends a few minutes actually thinking about it.
I'm preaching to the choir, but, exactly: the existence of lower classes is not just unavoidable, it's integral to the economy. A philosophy that recommends trying harder to be rich is not well thought-through (even setting aside the fact that wealth isn't really correlated with hard work). Because even if it worked, it wouldn't change anything, except for you personally. It's simply the failure to take the outside view, to look at the system as a whole. Someone will always be on the bottom, and various societal choices will affect what their lives are like. There's no natural reason to prefer those systems which lead to extremely unequal outcomes or unnecessary misery of the poor. Due to the decreasing marginal utility of money, redistribution does negligible harm to the wealthy (because, let's face it, past a certain point your wealth is just numbers in a spreadsheet somewhere, not anything that has a real effect on your ability to obtain what you want or need), and benefits not only individuals on the lower end of the income scale, but also the economy as a whole. That can be expected to feed back into other benefits like less crime, etc. Other than spite, and misguided* selfishness, what's the reason for being against any of this, in principle? Obviously people can disagree on the details like what the tax brackets should be set at, etc, but qualitatively it all seems perfectly reasonable.

* I say misguided, not because I do not think people should be self-interested, but because it actually makes no practical difference if one is very wealthy and has a percentage of their income shaved off. A billionaire taxed even at 99% would still have more money than anyone knows what to do with (besides use it to make even more money). I say when you're at the level where the only thing you can use your money for is accelerating the rate of money-making, society need not give much of a shit about protecting your interests anymore. You're well taken care of, and even absurdly unrealistically punitive redistribution will leave you sitting pretty.
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  #62  
Old 03-21-2012, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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I get the impression that there are a lot of Libertarians in the Northwest. Is that a false impression, and if not, why so many?
Jason Sorens in 2010 has some estimates here, and here. He shows his work, and comes up with:
Quote:
The states with the most libertarians are Montana, Alaska, New Hampshire, and Idaho, with Nevada, Indiana, Georgia, Wyoming, Washington, Oregon, Utah, California, and Colorado following.
I'm not sure why those states would have the largest groupings. Though Alaska, New Hampshire, Washington, Wyoming, and Nevada have no state income tax.
Some of those states have a holdover "Wild West" mentality going on. And many have rather extreme climates, with low population density so individualism is sort of expected and even required. Take Alaska for an example of Wild West...my husband conducted a business meeting there, and there was a special table at the front door for everyone to put their guns, and everyone carried them. Montana is a rugged, challenging, and low population environment to live in, with an economy based on ranching, so attracts those who want to be isolated and self sustaining.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

AML, why are you living in Italy?
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  #64  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
I get the impression that there are a lot of Libertarians in the Northwest. Is that a false impression, and if not, why so many?

by the way...

are you judging a people based on where they were born? is it their pale, rain-soaked skin that makes you sick?

humans and their labels :rolleyes:
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
The fact there are rags to riches stories like J.K. ROWLING prove a thing .. you have ZERO excuses if you are not rich because you can do it and I can give you a long list of people amassing a vast amount of wealth starting with nothing.....maybe you need to study 20 hours instead of 6 and work 2 jobs instead of one but it is all your fucking fault if you don't realize.
Did you know that J K Rowling, a single parent at the time, was living on benefits (a.k.a. government handouts funded by the taxpayer) when she wrote the first Harry Potter novel?

I suppose under the great Libertarian system, Jo, to support herself and her daughter, would have had to take on some menial job or starve to death. Harry Potter would never have been written.
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  #66  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
AML, why are you living in Italy?
Objection. Asked and answered:

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Originally Posted by Dumbfuck Veal Calf
In a egualitarian country everyone is keep down at the same level at the worst idiot,drunk-addicted,heroine-abuser double IQ high school dropout useless idiot
In a true lolbertarian anarcho-capitalist wonderland, AML would be among the first ground up and spit out by the merciless meat grinder of meritocracy. On his own merit, AML would have no chance whatsoever of rising to the dizzying heights of "worst idiot,drunk-addicted,heroine-abuser double IQ high school dropout useless idiot." So you see, he needs socialist egualitarianism to help him attain a status he could never hope to achieve on his own.
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  #67  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:56 PM
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:dddp:
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: This explain everything

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Originally Posted by EinWhinyPlagarian
but the fact there are rags to riches stories like J.K. ROWLING prove a thing .
LOL @ "proof by Hogwarts." :hagrid::dumble::snape::harry:


Quote:
END OF STORY)
You got that right, you little failclown.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:51 PM
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Life should be fair because the net total wealth of fair societies is quite a lot higher, because more people are stakeholders with a genuine chance for some form of success.

People who can't own property have very little reason to work. People are not all that dumb; if the "chance" to own property isn't real, they aren't gonna be fooled. But if you run a fair system, where people have real rights and a certain amount of basic cooperation is enforced, you suddenly have a lot more people working harder -- and not just working harder, but thinking harder. And that's where you get innovation, which is where the vast majority of the wealth comes from.

So in short, since I want to be wealthy, the best strategy for me to pursue is a strategy which maximizes the number of reasonably wealthy people.

Note that I can do all of this without any appeal to morality or ethics. I can also do it purely by appeals to those, but since people disagree about moral and ethical rules, I prefer to use the purely pragmatic argument.

(Thus my essay on how to become richer than you've ever been.)

EDIT: And yes, I find it hilarious that someone lazy and incompetent is promoting lolbertarianism. A person who's got nothing to contribute probably shouldn't be advocating a system under which his best chance of survival would be someone stronger deciding that he's got a pretty mouth.
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by seebs View Post
A person who's got nothing to contribute probably shouldn't be advocating a system under which his best chance of survival would be someone stronger deciding that he's got a pretty mouth.
I am *so* stealing this.

And no, I won't give you credit. Life's not fair. Sucker! :lolstossel:
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:12 PM
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Wealth is largely self-norming; while people tend to want more money, past some point (I think currently around $50k/year income in the US) it stops actually showing measurable effects on happiness.
but rich people use their money to create jobs and new products

if you stole the wealth from them everyone will lose

Quote:
Here’s why: Because wealth is largely relative, and you are always relative primarily to yourself
so you admit that obamamism/liberalism/socialism/communism or whatever you want to rebrand the term after every genocide and failure is all about envyness

a sane person(aka non-leftist) recognize that is better to live with 3$ in a world where everyone make 3000$ than with 2$ in a world where everyone make 1$


Quote:
Now pay it. Don’t lend them the money, just pay their rent. Get your mind used to the idea that this amount of money is good for a month’s reprieve from the perennial fear of being homeless with nowhere to go.

Can’t afford that? Go to a cash machine, withdraw whatever your daily limit is, and wander around buying scruffy-looking people lunch. Go to the grocery store and offer to buy the groceries of the first person you see there with a little kid. Look at the amounts involved. A friend of mine was sorta panicked recently over losing food stamps — worth a princely $16/month. That is not a typo.

Now go look at your bank account. Man, you are rich.
people aren't doing that for a simple reason: BIG GOVERNMENT takes away from them half of their hard-earned money making them half-slaves

free people are more likely to help their neighbours

half-slaves not
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Last edited by AynMisesLibertarian; 03-21-2012 at 07:29 PM.
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  #72  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:16 PM
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American Taxdollars at work:

Obama Daughter Spends Spring Break in Mexico with 12 Friends . . . and 25 Secret Service Agents « Pat Dollard
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  #73  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:24 PM
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Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
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Default Re: This explain everything

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
but rich people use their money to create jobs and new products
That particular canon of the lolbertarian faith never ceases to produce ... well, lols.
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  #74  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:36 PM
seebs seebs is offline
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Default Re: This explain everything

Oh, it's totally true that rich people can drive innovation and create stuff. It's just that you can be plenty rich to do that in a much less extreme society, and a lot more people have reason to try.
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  #75  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:40 PM
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Sauron Sauron is offline
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Default Re: This explain everything

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
but rich people use their money to create jobs and new products
Wrong. Demand creates jobs and new products.

Quote:
if you stole the wealth from them everyone will lose
Also wrong. In fact, the evidence from land redistribution shows that assets often sit unproductive in the hands of the mega-rich, and aren't even properly utilized. But when those assets get redistributed, then the effect on the local economy is tremendously beneficial.


Quote:
Here’s why: Because wealth is largely relative, and you are always relative primarily to yourself

so you admit that obamamism/liberalism/socialism/communism or whatever you want to rebrand the term after every genocide and failure is all about envyness
That has nothing to do with what he said. You're too stupid to even understand the flaw in your own response.
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