A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Hi everyone,

I started this thread so we can separate the discussions. This thread is intended to help people understand Lessans' first discovery, which is the key that unlocks the door to the Golden Age of man. All are welcome to participate, but please try to keep the topic under discussion in mind when posting. Because these principles are not easy to grasp, it is my hope that people will be group minded when responding. Thank you very much for taking my suggestions into consideration.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

A new thread! Thank you peacegirl.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Great, maybe peacegirl would now like to explain how the modal fallacy does not apply to Lessans proof.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I mean WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOO

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Then start by clearly explaining the 'first discovery' and lay out the proof in a logical and understandable order. Quoting the book will not do. Plain English, not Lessans convoluted babble. If you cannot restate it clearly in your own words, that is a clear indication that you do not really understand it.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I have to agree with thedoc. You need to lay out a summary of the finding, without Lessans confusing fake dialog interjections, butthurt at "the establishment" and self congratulating.

Make it read like a true work of scholarship rather than a stream of consciousness experiment. This is the only way you will be seen as someone with something serious to offer. If you can't summarize it then you must not understand it yourself.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

You're very welcome. ;)

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Deadlord, who are you to come here and tell me Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Do you think that changes anything?

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I already posted the proof, but if you're not willing to even listen to what it says instead of attacking what it says the minute I speak, we're going to be in trouble.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

No doc, this does not fly. I will post portions of the book when I feel it is appropriate. I'm giving it to you gratis and I hope you appreciate that. You will never grasp this knowledge if all you want to do is argue even before you even understand what he's talking about. That's exactly what's happening.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I already did summarize it. We all move in the direction of GREATER satisfaction, which leaves us only one choice at each moment in time. What are you so in disagreement with to conclude that this is all bullshit?

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Oh, look, a new thread by peacegirl! A Revolution in Thought, Part Two! :lecher:

Is this going to be like Part One, in which we learned that we see in real time, even though we don't? :popcorn:

Oh, well, every dark cloud has a silver lining, as they say!

In this thread we can explore the usual objections to free will, which broadly fit into three categories: Causal or Laplacean determinism, logical determinism (Aristotle's problem of future contingents) and epistemic determinism (the problem of God's foreknowledge) and see why none of them impede free will. :wave:

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Yes, I do appreciate it. :yup: Lessans' book was a great source of humor, albeit all of it unintended to be humorous.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

No David, you're just really angry at Lessans. It makes me sad. :sadcheer:

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

If your primary, or only, means of explaining the concepts is to quote the book, then you have lost already. The book is unclear and insufficent to the purpose. If you can't restate clearly and explain bit by bit, Lessans ideas will be lost to the world and it will be your fault. The responsability is entirely on you to present the material in a way that readers can understand.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

We can easily dispense with this argument.

1. It is not established, merely asserted, that we always move in the direction of greater satisfaction. Among other things, this claim runs afoul of real-world circumstances in which, very often, we do not know which option will bring us greater satisfaction.

2. However, let us say, by hypothesis, that the claim is true: We always move in the direction of greater satisfaction. This fact, if it were a fact, does not impeach our free will. As has already been explained, and as everyone except you-know-who understands, it merely means that we DO move in the direction of greater satisfaction, not that we MUST. To assert that we MUST move in the direction of greater satisfaction, is to commit the modal fallacy, wherein one mixes up contingent truth with necessary truth.

So that is the end of Lessans' argument.

I propose, in this thread, that we have a discussion of free will and determinism, always a fascinating topic. Peacegirl's stuff can be ignored because it has already been refuted.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

:pat: :halftroll:

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I would expect you to start introducing the material soon, it won't fly to spend pages arguing about the format or past history. Get a grip and start, if you are worried about hostility stalling will not help, again it is entirely on you to present it clearly. We, the readers, have no responsability at all, you are trying to sell these ideas to us, we are not trying to convince you to sell them to us.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I put the original thread on ignore long ago. This one is already having the same problems and complaints the other one did when I left it, so I suspect it will also eventually disappear from my personal radar screen.

Until then, though, I will be following along with interest.

Carry on!

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I really encourage you to put this thread on ignore too, since you're not available to hear the reasoning behind the proof. So move on SharonDee. I don't want you to waste your time. That would upset me.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

If you were concerned about wasting time you wouldn't have started this new thread.

Good grief.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

I've been wanting to hear more about determinism and the possibilities of free will from a naturalist perspective, since a lot of the material on the topic involves the theological side, especially the reconciliation of free will with a perfectly omniscient deity.

Anyone know any good sources or books, or have any thoughts on the matter?

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

That's exactly why I started this thread.

Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two
 

Your flippant response indicates to me that you don't want to be here. Go find other books. I can't even begin to discuss this discovery with people who are so disrespectful in every way. Just go Kael.