Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemonkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
They were observations Spacemonkey. Don't tell me he was trying to pass off anything because that's not what he was doing. You are so far from being right it never fails to shock me since you are supposed to the the cream of the intellectual crop. 
I hope you don't give up because if you stick with it, and maybe buy the Mp3, you might actually change your tune.
We? You mean you. Please don't speak for everyone.
Your reasoning is failing you and you won't let me continue because you think you're right. Whether you recognize it or not, you're defending your rightness without a thorough understanding and you're ruining it for yourself. That's what I mean when I say that sometimes too much education can make someone more ignorant because he uses his intellect to close off doors that have actual potential.
He did not have to observe every single conscience to know that he was right. He saw patterns which helped him understand the mechanism behind conscience, and what conscience needs to allow behavior to step over certain boundaries. If you don't want to hear anymore, then don't listen. I am not going to be on trial by the way you interrogate me, and that's how it feels. Why can't you let me go through the chapter my way, and refrain from making premature judgments until this discovery is thoroughly investigated?
If you still believe that in a no free will environment, when all judgment, criticism, blame and punishment, cease, and when everyone has complete economic security such that if they should fall below their standard of living, the citizens of the world will help them through the guarantee, then you don't have to become a citizen. You can remain in the world of free will, but there will be those who will want what this new world offers, and they will derive the benefits. It's as simple as that. |
If neither you nor Lessans can give anyone any reason to accept those points which I listed as his presuppositions on conscience, then no-one has any reason to accept them. Calling them observations simply doesn't cut it, because no-one has any reason to believe them to be accurate or correct. Insisting that they are accurate isn't going to cut it either, because no-one (including yourself) has any reason to believe this. You have your faith, but no-one else is ever going to share it. |
These observations are carefully supported Spacemonkey, but if you are having difficulty understanding why man's will is not free and therefore keep calling Lessans' proof a tautology, we're not going to get very far, that is, unless people ask enough questions as to how the extension of these principles work where it all begins to make sense. As far as conscience goes, you're going to have to trust that his observations were spot on. A very clear pattern began to emerge through his years of reading historical accounts, which was not visible to the average person. |
If his presuppositions on conscience were supported then they wouldn't have to be taken on faith. There is no reason why anyone should trust that these non-observations were 'spot on'. His non-discovery requires certain things to be true of conscience which no-one agrees with and which he doesn't give people any reason to believe. Lessans failed to support the most important parts of his argument. Just like you, he didn't even seem to be aware of what his argument must presuppose, or of what he would have to support for his argument to be rationally convincing.