[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

No I'm not. I have said nothing deliberately in order to obfuscate the situation. I never make promises either. So if I change my mind by answering you when I said I wouldn't, I did not lie. I simply changed my mind based on a new post or a change of heart.

No, Peacegirl. You have flat out lied, and you have admitted to it.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You're out the door. It is not your place to diagnose me in an effort to be right. That is the most disgusting and underhanded thing a desperate person can do. And you are desperate to defend your position at all costs. If you keep doing this, I will not talk to you. Take it or leave it.

You brought it up.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I was describing libertarian free will, but the compatibilist kind still doesn't work when you analyze it more deeply. Making special allowances for only a certain kind of determinism, and to still blame people who don't have that kind of problem, is still blaming, and blaming people who you believe are free enough to change their behavior, affords them the very excuse to continue with their behavior, as I explained in the previous post. You think blaming and punishing is acting as a deterrent for those who you feel are capable of changing...but how is it working in reality Spacemonkey? You say without it our world could be worse off, but I am asking you to reconsider this and to just look at what is going on in today's world. Our jails are filled with repeat offenders. The only time a real change occurs and there is true rehabilitation is when there is compassion, understanding, and forgiveness, not punishment. That should give you a clue. Punishment is necessary in this world, granted, but I am asking you to kindly give me a chance to explain why a world of no blame will not be a disaster; it is the very thing that will save us from disaster.

And you are again resorting to the claim that we can do better than compatibilism. Yet you still can't argue this without presupposing it to be completely impossible. And whenever asked to show why it is impossible you revert to claiming we can do better. This reasoning is still circular.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

His proof of determinism is absolutely 100% spot on.

And completely non-existent.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I was thinking about this this morning trying to understand where the confusion is for you, and this is it. You have not accepted, or even allowed, Lessans to move through the vestibule. Just as other philosophers have done in the past, they cannot get past the implications, and that's exactly what you are doing. You are turning back because you cannot see how not blaming will do any good. As we have seen in the past, turning the other cheek can make matters worse. Until you allow me to show you what happens when we follow the reasoning that Lessans is presenting, you will continue to defend your position as being the only solution.

I won't let Lessans through the vestibule? What are you smoking? If you want to know why I reject Lessans you need only read my posts. I am telling you exactly why he is wrong. For example, at the moment you are still trying to refute compatibilist free will merely by pointing out that it is not incompatibilist free will. That is utterly moronic.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I am just saying that compatibilism is incompatible, which has nothing to do with libertarianism. It is incompatible because the minute you blame you are not truly a determinist, as you claim. If you don't want to hear more, then let's stop now. If you do want to hear more, you have to allow me to continue without the false attacks on my character.

Ridiculous. Your only argument against compatibilism is your question-begging presupposition that only libertarian freedom really counts as free will. And nothing about blame prevents one from being a determinist about macro level human decision-making.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I am not assuming in advance that the only 'real' kind of free will is the libertarian variety. There is no free will, whether the libertarian variety, or the compatibiist variety.

I know you claim there is no free will of any variety. But you are still also assuming in advance that the only kind of freedom that would count as free will if we had it is the libertarian variety. So the only kind you are actually denying us to have is the libertarian kind, because that is the only kind you will recognize or even consider. It's like 'proving' that all cheese is made in the USA by denying that any non-US cheese counts as cheese.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That is not what I'm doing. I am showing you that the compatibilist variety of free will is also flawed.

But you haven't shown it to be flawed. All you've done is point out that it isn't libertarian freedom and claim that we can do better.