[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That's exactly why optics works. It gives us information at the eye. But it doesn't take light to travel 93 million miles to give us this information when the object (the substance) is within our field of view, not just the light which will give us nothing.

The information I just mentioned consists of the properties of the light AT THE RETINA. This light cannot be there without first getting from the Sun to the eye. That DOES involve traveling 93 million miles.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

No I'm not, but it's not just photons that are necessary for sight. This is YOUR oversight.

It doesn't matter if more than just light is needed. You still do need light at the retina, and you still can't explain where it comes from or how it gets there.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We're not talking about the distance from an object to the Earth. We're talking about the intensity of light that would allow us to see it in real time, which, as I said in the example of seeing the Sun, once we can see it, that object is already in optical range. If light is reflected from an object, and it arrives on Earth, according to you the light would have the information to allow us to see the object in delayed time. But if it shows up as the full spectrum, then what Spacemonkey? What happens to your theory then?

Light is not reflected in the newly ignited Sun example. The Sun emits light. It does not reflect it. It makes no difference whether the arriving light is full or partial spectrum at the moment. Whatever it is, it still cannot get to the retina or film on Earth until 8min after the Sun is first ignited, because that is how long it will take the first emitted photons to get from the Sun to the eye or film.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Of course it does.

How? How can it make sense for photons to be leaving the surface of the Sun 8min BEFORE the Sun begins to emit any photons????

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I'm not saying that it doesn't take time for light to get here on Earth.

Yes you are. You are saying that the photons will be at the film/retina on Earth instantly, which is 8min before they can get there.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

All I'm saying is that the photons that would allow us to see the external world don't come from traveling photons.

ALL PHOTONS ARE TRAVELING PHOTONS. There is no other kind of photons.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We wouldn't get an image even though light itself has certain properties. Why? Because images don't get reflected. We use those properties to see the real thing.

No-one says that images get reflected. Only light gets reflected.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Maybe I'm not explaining this clearly, so it needs more careful examination. I am still maintaining that if the object itself has enough luminosity, the nonabsorbed photons will be at the eye instantly since we will already be within optical range of the object without any travel time.

That is still 8min before those photons can get there from the Sun without teleporting. So where do they come from and how do they get there?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

It's not strawman nonsense, that's just it.

But it is. Every time you speak of traveling images you are reverting to your father's strawman.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

No, I'm not describing teleporting light Spacemonkey.

Yes, you are. Light from the Sun which is at the film or retina instantly with no travel time is TELEPORTING light, by definition.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

If you put the brightness of the object in combination with its size, that light will be revealing the object because the nonabsorbed photons are not traveling.

ALL LIGHT TRAVELS, remember?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

They are being replaced by new photons which continue to travel but the image that allows us to see the object does not travel.

There's your traveling images strawman again.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You're still believing that light brings the information to Earth.

No, I'm not. As I just explained to you, whether or not information is in the light is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the present point. You just said that distance doesn't matter, and would only matter if light were traveling from the Sun to the eye. So how does light get to the eye without traveling there from the Sun?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We can only come to this conclusion by the example he gave regarding the Sun.

That's the example I'm asking you to address.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That's why you cannot talk about traveling photons as bringing the information.

I'm not. I'm simply asking you about the photons you need to have at the retina. Where did they come from and how did they get there?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I already said that the full spectrum travels and is constantly being replaced.

And yet none of that spectrum can get to the film or retina on Earth until 8min after the Sun is ignited.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

The issue here is that the nonabsorbed photons that allow us to see in real time do not travel from A to B.

Is that because these photons are not at B (the film/retina)? Or because they traveled from somewhere other than A (the Sun)? Or is it because they are non-traveling photons?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Light does travel Spacemonkey but in the efferent model we get nothing from these photons in which to form an image if the object isn't present. Again, you are not looking at this backwards. You are focusing only on traveling photons which will bring us nothing, no image at all.

Again, even if the photons bring nothing at all, you still need them to be at the film or retina, and you still can't explain where they come from or how they get there.