[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

That point is that in the past few decades both parties have shifted to the center, so that the differences between them in practice is marginal.

That was true five or six years ago. But now the Republicans have moved to the right and left the Democrats in the middle.

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

I might point out to you that John F. Kennedy hasn't been a candidate in 44 years, but your party seems to keep trying to revive him.

I must have missed that memo. He's ancient history as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

Did you see the same Republican Party convention that I did? I saw the one with Senator Zell Miller from Georgia, a Democrat, giving a short but moving speech about how his party had abandoned him and its ideals in favor of partisanship at a time when it desperately needed to rise about partisanship for the good of the country.

Sure, if you consider foaming at the mouth "moving". He abandoned his party because he opposes gay rights and affirmative action. The party didn't abandon him until he started speaking against Democratic candidates and supporting Republican ones.

I saw Zell Miller expressing outrage that any American would dare to speak out against the Iraq war and call the current situation an occupation.

Excuse me for telling the truth, Zell.

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

I saw the one with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger speaking about growing up poor in Soviet-occupied, and then socialist, Austria

Austria, socialist?

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

and dreaming about and later realizing everything that makes American great and strong--you know, opportunity and all that.

Are you aware that Schwarzenegger supports a law making it illegal to sue the companies that engineered the power shortage and price increases?

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

I saw the one where the party was smart enough to put forth two terrific speakers who happen to be very much in the middle (hell, even both from the left more so than from the right) as cornerstones for the convention.

Schwarzenegger and Miller from the left?

Yes, they espouse more centrist views than others in the Republican party. Now, how much influence do you think they really have?

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Originally Posted by livius drusus

I thought your concentration camp rhetoric was nonsense too. Not only is it not going to happen...

I sincerely never hope I am never in a position to say I told you so. But do you really not see a connection between the men who killed Matthew Shepard and Jerry Falwell and Rick Santorum's rhetoric?

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Originally Posted by Kamen

Are you familiar with connections between mobs and unions? Are you familiar with Tawana Brawley (sp?). Are you familiar with extortion practiced by the Rainbow Coalition?

Were any of those crimes instrumental in starting a war?

Originally Posted by Kamen

In addition, big business provides jobs

In India, Panama, and Mexico

Originally Posted by Kamen

and supports our economy.

If by "economy" you mean the richest 1% of the population with a few crumbs thrown down to the rest of us. Or that's what it was like less than 100 years ago. If it weren't for labor unions, a large part of the American workforce would be working 12 hour days, seven days a week with minimal pay and no health insurance.

You don't really buy that Reagonomics trickle-down bullshit do you?

Originally Posted by Kamen

Business bad unions good is a simplistic and ultimately incorrect mantra.

Of course I was oversimplifying there, to illustrate the huge difference in degree between the corrupting influences on both sides.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Nice cherrypicking. Are you saying corruption and pork barrelling came into existence in 1994? What about prior 40 years?

No, but it became much worse and much more blatant around that time.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Of course rabid, unreasonable and incorrect rhetoric does not spread through party lines. Moore, Paul Krugman, the congresswoman who claimed Bush was behind 9/11, Al Franken, Moveon and many others.

Neither Moore, Krugman, Franken, or MoveOn are rabid or unreasonable. Yes, they spin a point of view. But in contrast to the people I mentioned they never lie.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Most Republicans I know are quite embarrassed by the people you named.

Are they embarassed that they get their talking points directly from the RNC and the White House?

Originally Posted by Kamen

They are blowhards who scream the loudest. They are not the essence of the party.

I know a lot of Republican voters who espouse the same views as those blowhards.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Well, you convinced me. Every Republican is a brain dead moron.

I did not call you a brain dead moron, and I certainly wasn't talking about all Republicans - I was only talking about the minority that share your views.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Do you not see that moderate Republicans rightfully resent this patronizing statement? Patriots, intelligent people, people who follow the news can disagree about which direction is best for the country.

I'm not talking about which direction is best for the country. I'm talking about lying about Iraq, incompetent military planning, spying on American citizens without due process, intimidating the media, gay-bashing, and religious bigotry.

But mostly I'm talking about lying us into a war that is contrary to our strategic interests.

Originally Posted by Kamen

This kind of rabid rhetoric was appalling when some attacked Clinton, and it is appalling now.

The difference being that most of the attacks on Clinton weren't true. Whitewater wasn't a big deal. He didn't technically commit perjury but he did lie to the American people on TV. Travelgate was a non-issue.

Compare that with the manufactured intelligence on Iraq's WMDs, lies about ties with Al Qaeda, no-bid contracts to Halliburton, mistated earnings at Halliburton while Cheney was CEO, the year before he became Vice President, ordering the EPA to withhold and distort reports, and ignoring a memo that said "Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States", and staring into space for 7 minutes while the United States was under attack.

Originally Posted by Kamen

I find comparisons to Hitler and mentions of Zyklon B particularly repugnant, because that insults the memory of millions of victims of real fascism by making them into a rhetorical device.

If the jackboot fits...

Look, I'm not talking about you being a fascist, or even most Republican voters. I'm talking about the party being taken over by an authoritarian, bigoted movement.

Originally Posted by Kamen

If you are interested in progressive Republicans taking over their party, you should reach out to them and convince them of your opinions, not insult and denigrate them.

I played nice for four years. I am not going to mollycoddle people who are not paying attention to what is right in front of their eyes.

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

If you want Goldwater-style candidates you will have to vote Libertarian or Independence.

Actually, no I don't. I can vote for moderate Republicans and Democrats in the primaries. I can support them on a local level. I can organize grass root support to rival religious right. I can make sure they know that blowhards are a fringe, not the foundation of their party. [/quote]

Yes, but we were talking about national politics. I still hold out hope for gradual internal change within the GOP and within the Democrats. I'll vote Green locally. But on the national level, save for a handful of Senators and representatives, a vote for George W. Bush or the Republican leadership is a vote for unnecessary military aggression, dishonest government, and policies that favor the extremely rich.

Originally Posted by Kamen

The current takeover of the Republican party by interests contrary to its history and platform happened because they were led to believe there is a majority that wants that.

And they did a good job whipping up people to agree with them by funding, bribing, and intimidating the media to broadcast their message.

Originally Posted by Kamen

Was the Congresswoman who after 9/11 said Bush organized the attacks not enough of a wakeup call for you?

Did she speak at the DNC? How much influence do you think she has compared to Falwell?

Look, I didn't mean to wish that the OP or anyone else would do themselves violence with cyanide gas or anything else. I was trying to warn them what people who vote for Bush and his supporters are voting for.