[Cool Hand]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I am not, and never have, accused Cool Hand of being a genocidal maniac. I am accusing him and people who share his views of being blind to the fact that their party is run by, not just pandering to, genocidal maniacs. His parroting the administration's laughable excuses for the Abu Ghraib abuse just lends credence to that.

CBS story on Abu Ghraib

General Karpinski Blames Intel For Abuse


A few out of control soldiers my ass.

Godless Dave,

I'm calling bullshit on you.

Allow me to refute, point by point, the nonsense you continue to spout in this thread, which you have attempted to hijack to somewhere far beyond its original intent.

1) You say above,

I am accusing him and people who share his views of being blind to the fact that their party is run by, not just pandering to, genocidal maniacs.

It is a fact that the GOP is run by genocidal maniacs? Good grief, man. Do you care to support such an absurd assertion with actual, hard, cold facts, rather than naked partisan rhetoric? I want facts, not out of this world partisan mud-slinging nonsense. Name me the leaders of the Republican Party--and I want names, dates, places, persons murdered, body counts, means of killing, and all other relevant details--who are genocidal killers. Put up or shut up. You are not getting away with making any more scurrilous and inflammatory comments in this thread.

2) You comment,

His parroting the administration's laughable excuses for the Abu Ghraib abuse just lends credence to that.

First, I'm not parroting anything. I would appreciate your granting me a little credit for being able to think for myself. Second, the administration has made no attempt whatsoever to excuse or justify the atrocities some U.S. Army Reservists committed at the Adu Graib prison. Show me any quote, any statement, any press release at all in which the President or anyone at the Cabinet level has attempted to excuse or justify the tortures and abuses committed against the Iraqi prisoners. Give me one, just one.

What you actually have is the administration and Army generals universally condemning what the handful of soldiers at the prison did. Read your own links. I'm familiar with the same news accounts you are. Nowhere in them will you find any evidence that the President or his aides or any high level military officer ordered anyone to torture, abuse, or murder Iraqi prisoners of war. Nowhere.

What you find in the news accounts you linked to are statements from regular army generals, some of the accused soldiers and their attorneys, and from reporters. The generals condemn and denounce the abuses. The accused soldiers and their lawyers blame their conduct on a lack of training and supervision, and also on the prison's being under-staffed. Some of them claim that military intelligence officers--without naming anyone or specifying a unit or anything else about them--instructed them on how to interrogate POWs. If they are claiming that the MI soldiers instructed them to abuse and torture prisoners as a lawful and effective means of gaining valuable intelligence, then I find such a claim to be self-serving and incredible. I am not a stranger to what is lawful treatment of POWs, nor am I a stranger to military intelligence and effective interrogation techniques.

I served almost 4 years on active duty as a U.S. Army judge advocate before and during the first Gulf War. Before I completed law school and was admitted to my state's bar, I was assigned to the military intelligence branch of the U.S. Army. I was an instructor in the law of war, including the code of conduct allowed towards POWs under the UCMJ and in accordance with international law, for hundreds of soldiers at my post. I am familiar with what is prohibited by, what is allowed pursuant to, and what is considered a crime under the UCMJ with respect to treatment of POWs. Furthermore, I am familiar with the training all U.S. soldiers on active duty receive with respect to the lawful treatment of POWs.

I am confident that there was no systemic order to abuse prisoners. No one has produced a shred of evidence to the contrary. What should be abundantly clear is that the reservist MPs who were given prison duty at Abu Ghraib were: 1) poorly trained in the law of war; 2) poorly supervised; 3) under-staffed; and 4) not the best choice of personnel for overseeing the prison and conducting interrogations.

What is not supported by any credible evidence is any assertion or claim that anyone other than the American soldiers at Abu Ghraib made a decision to visit torture and abuse upon the Iraqi prisoners of war there. There was no one there above the rank of staff sergeant. Their commanding officers, presumably those at the company level and possibly at the battalion or even brigade levels, have been disciplined for improper supervision (dereliction of duty under the UCMJ), not for ordering the commission of war crimes.

3) You comment in closing,

A few out of control soldiers my ass.

Six soldiers were to stand trial by court-martial as of the writing of the news accounts you linked to. Six. Their commanding officers were reprimanded, presumably for dereliction of duty in failing to supervise them. The reserve general charged with overseeing the prisons in Iraq was relieved of her duty. That's it. Yes, I would call that a few soldiers. Out of control? Yes.

None of the above supports your outrageous allegations that the Republican Party and/or the Bush administration had anything to do with ordering, soliciting, or condoning the war crimes the handful of soldiers committed at Adu Ghraib.

If you want to debate this subject further, I suggest you start your own thread devoted to the same. If you do, I will be happy to debate you and provide actual facts to support my position. I will expect and demand that you do the same. If you are unable or unwilling to provide factual support for your outrageous claims, then I will call you on it and end my further participation, as I will not debate someone who refuses to put up when asked.

I'm not interested in an insult contest. You called me a troll. Fine--you believe what you want. I will not stand for you to hijack this thread with blowhard demagoguery, however.

Cool Hand