[natasha]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm uncomfortable with repeated use of the word "zionist", for instance, not because it isn't a legitimate word both with both historical and current meanings, but because to me it is now hopelessly burdened by white supremacist, William Turneresque ZOG connotations. So even when I feel a given criticism of Israeli policy is entirely reasonable and well-argued, if "zionist" features more than once it gives me the willies.

Agreed. When did the word "Zionist" come to mean apartheid loving neo-con Arab hating ZOG etc.? There isn't anything wrong with being a Zionist. It's taken on a whole new, and highly charged, negative meaning today, a short hand for all that is wrong with Israel. And I don't think anyone here would deny there is a lot wrong with the direction Israel is going. But to toss around Zionist as if it's a slur, and as you say, more than once, tends to raise some flags.

I also have a big personal problem with crypto-Nazis, and I know very well there are people who pretend that racist fascism isn't at the root of whatever political comment they're making when it totally is. They use code, pretend to be pro-Palestinian human rights in order to get people who would normally spit on their Nazi crap to agree with them. I've seen this kind of shit on discussion boards more than a little and it seriously drives me nuts.

Agreed.

The other side of that coin is the to my mind spurious notion that any criticism of the Israeli government is grounded in hatred of Jews -- something I've seen a lot in the mainstream press and among the punditocracy. This serves more than anything to paint critics (often progressives/liberals/lefties) as anti-semites and therefore easily dismiss their criticisms.

True. BUT, there often is a veiled anti-Semitism, and that's what I was trying to get at in the other thread. Before diving into long discussions about Israel, I like to know where the person is coming from. They may or may not be anti-Semitic, but sometimes are. BTW, being anti-Semitic, or any other form of bigotry, comes in many shades, just like anything else. It just seems that in the past 15 years or so the rush is to bash Israel like crazy, without once stopping to consider all of the factors.

I agree though, it most certainly is not, by itself, anti-Semitic to question policy.

I suppose my perspective hidden among all this blather is that it is essential in these kinds of discussions to eschew sloppy generalizations and conclusion-leaping as much as possible. Even saying something like Isreal is this or Israel is that can be a messy affair because Israel is not a monolith, but a democracy which has seen many governments from different points on the political spectrum.

Exactly.

Assuming a positive, detailed discussion is what you're after, of course. That's not always the case and it's not necessarily a bad thing when it isn't.

Confused yet? Good. My work here is done. I'll leave the cogent argumentation to y'all then.

Good start though, thanks!

P.S. - Here's the best post I've ever read on the subject of Israel/Palestine. I know it's only tangential to this thread, but I love it so I can't help but post it again here.