Infanticide sentence

[justaman]

Heyaa

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15112229-2,00.html

I know some people will disagree violently with the sentence on face value, but I am SO proud to be an Australian right now after reading it. This is what justice should be about, taking in all the variables and not just using black-and-white dogma to make decisions.

[John Carter]

The page won't load for me. It gets the banner adds at the top then just sits there.

[JoeP]

I don't even get the banner ads. Justy, post the key clips ...

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by justaman

Heyaa

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15112229-2,00.html

I know some people will disagree violently with the sentence on face value, but I am SO proud to be an Australian right now after reading it. This is what justice should be about, taking in all the variables and not just using black-and-white dogma to make decisions.

Well, I do disagree with the sentence on face value (but not violently).

I think that taking all the variables into account (at least those annotated in the article) still leads me to promote that rehabilitation, psych treatment, combined with some additional punitive jail time would have been a more appropriate sentence.

Other than to directly protect the life of self or others there is no excuse for someone to take a human life (even the State).

If "fear of losing the respect of others" is the litmus test for justifiable homicide, then there opens a Pandora's box of potential defenses in other homicide cases.

As a side note, does anyone think that income level and/or race/appearance played any role in her sentence?

PS What's is potentially worse: being found to be the unexpected mother of a new life or being found to be the killer of a new life? How much respect do others have for her now?

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by justaman

Heyaa

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15112229-2,00.html

I know some people will disagree violently with the sentence on face value, but I am SO proud to be an Australian right now after reading it. This is what justice should be about, taking in all the variables and not just using black-and-white dogma to make decisions.

Right 'cause black and white dogma states that had she damaged the child before it came out, even minutes, she would be guilty of nothing so what difference does a few hours really make?

She almost should have gotten off scott free but there's this little technicality called personhood and fundamental human rights which we mess with every day and which young girls who can't deal with the consequences of their actions really should be able to mess with because fear of censure really is a great defense.

Geez, this isn't even a thirteen or fourteen year old girl, we're talking about a seventeen/eighteen year old.

[Miss Shelby]

The teenager gave birth to a boy in her bedroom, cut the umbilical cord with scissors, punched the baby several times to the head, wrapped it in a towel and placed it beside her bed in August, last year, the court was told

Black and white dogma would ask just why the hell this girl didn't know that to beat a baby in the head until it died is WRONG?

See that's the problem with people today. They don't teach other people the difference between right and wrong. They teach people that if you beat a baby to death, and have suffered abuse at the hands of your parents in the past or whatever, then it's okay that you beat the baby to death.

Michelle

[beyelzu]

sweetie, where the fuck do they perform third trimester abortions with out somesort of serious reason for it?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

Black and white dogma would ask just why the hell this girl didn't know that to beat a baby in the head until it died is WRONG?

See that's the problem with people today. They don't teach other people the difference between right and wrong. They teach people that if you beat a baby to death, and have suffered abuse at the hands of your parents in the past or whatever, then it's okay that you beat the baby to death.

Michelle

The point of the justice system is to make people functioning members of society it is not to fuck them up with a punishment that makes the public feel good. If this sentence does indeed cause such an outcome than it is an effective sentence.

I would like to see just how much psych work is actually done with this girl and how she turns out.

[Legs]

justaman, does Australia have a 'no questions asked' program where infants can be left at a hospital, clinic, fire brigade etc... without authorities persuing who left them?

It amazes me the stories I read where no one knew about the pregnancy - pregnant bellies are quite distinctive imo

[Miss Shelby]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

I would like to see just how much psych work is actually done with this girl and how she turns out.

Yeah me too. What I would not want to see though, is the psychiatrist tell her it wasn't her fault because of her circumstances..and that she didn't know better. I think it would be good if she could recognize what she did was wrong, very wrong, it was murder afterall, and own up to that and be remorseful about it. That, in my opinion, would go a long way in making her a functioning member of society.

It still bothers me though that consequences for these things end up being therapy and not punishment. When a child is murdered, some form of punishment is warranted, IMO.

Michelle

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Legs

justaman, does Australia have a 'no questions asked' program where infants can be left at a hospital, clinic, fire brigade etc... without authorities persuing who left them?

I just learned that we have such a thing 'round these parts because on the news last night they were talking about a woman who dropped off a newborn at the fire station. I was really happy to see a young fireman telling the reporter, "If a woman has any feeling whatsoever that she isn't able to take care of her baby there is nothing wrong with her bringing it here. There's no shame in that."

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

It still bothers me though that consequences for these things end up being therapy and not punishment. When a child is murdered, some form of punishment is warranted, IMO.

Yeah, the violent aspect of this story is really disturbing. I would definitely be seriously concerned about the psychological state of a girl who could punch a newborn baby to death and I think the possibility that she is some degree of menace to society would be reasonable.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Miss Shelby

Yeah me too. What I would not want to see though, is the psychiatrist tell her it wasn't her fault because of her circumstances..and that she didn't know better. I think it would be good if she could recognize what she did was wrong, very wrong, it was murder afterall, and own up to that and be remorseful about it. That, in my opinion, would go a long way in making her a functioning member of society.

It still bothers me though that consequences for these things end up being therapy and not punishment. When a child is murdered, some form of punishment is warranted, IMO.

Michelle

I'm curious: If there was powerful empirical evidence suggesting that telling her it wasn't her fault (in conjunction with other therapy) would make her a non-threatening good-neighbour member of society, while punishing her would make her a long-term threat and a dependant on state resources for life, would you say it's wrong to tell her it wasn't her fault, and right to punish her?

I suspect that there's two things conflated in many people's opinions: (1) a conviction about the need for punishment as desert, and (2) a folk-psychological theory imbibed from their youth, according to which punishment is really the way to "straighten people out". I think that many people are so committed to (2) that they rely on (1) to get around situations in which the evidence is heavily against the truth of (2).

There certainly are some such situations -- the disciplining of children probably being the most empirically studied -- but I can't say whether the case from the OP is one such.

[livius drusus]

What's the missing bit here? "Justice Bongiorno said some people who did not know all the facts of the case may believe the sentence did not punish her, but he said he did not believe she should go to jail."

If someone punched a kitten -- nevermind her own baby -- in the head and killed it I'd like to see them get a little more than probation and counseling, not because of bloodlust but because it would seem to me there is something profoundly disturbed about the person, and I'd like to be reasonably certain this doesn't escalate to danger to society levels.

[Legs]

liv, people who hurt animals are sadists and on a path to bigger and better things when they escalate their behavior.

This girl, she probably hated this baby - blamed it, like it was the cause of all her problems. I don't think it is the same as hurting a kitten, I don't believe she was getting sadistic pleasure out of it.

[Clutch Munny]

I don't know whether this particular judge and the experts called upon are competent to make the determination, but I see no reason to think that the details of the case are inconsistent with discovering that counseling and probation would safely help her, while incarceration would harm her.

[Dragar]

Poor kid, she sounds so screwed up.

I don't know anything about how people tick. Not really. But like others, I think that jail time would hardly have helped the situation.

It may be this girl is punishing herself, right now. I don't know. I know if I ever did something even vaguely similar, I'd be an emotional wreck. But I'm not her. I hope she isn't; I'd rather see her as a happy, emotionally stable member of our human race one day.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

sweetie, where the fuck do they perform third trimester abortions with out somesort of serious reason for it?

Does it matter if the principle still stands?

To harm a baby on the verge of being delivered is to harm a non-person and that's all that matters. She could have shoved a long metal object that could pierce a skull up her crotch and murdered the child before it was born fully alive and I would imagine that technically speaking, she should get off scott free. I would hope so, wish she would have been a little smarter, a few steps/minutes ahead.

There have been cases when by human error at hospitals and such a not yet born but almost child has been injured, with no possibility of a claim of malpractice because.....well, damaging an unborn thing is just that.

We had a case a few years ago of a woman abusing solvents. Not only had she already damaged one child, she damaged four and was working on damaging her fifth. The government couldn't do a damned thing, I'm so proud of all that Liberals have managed to accomplish.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

We had a case a few years ago of a woman abusing solvents. Not only had she already damaged one child, she damaged four and was working on damaging her fifth. The government couldn't do a damned thing, I'm so proud of all that Liberals have managed to accomplish.

It's hard to fathom your complaint, and in particular why you are picking the Liberal party to be the focus of your pique.

Are you hoping to find a political party intent on forcibly sterilizing women with a history of drug abuse? What, exactly, do you think the Liberals ought to have done?

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Are you hoping to find a political party intent on forcibly sterilizing women with a history of drug abuse? What, exactly, do you think the Liberals ought to have done?

Find some way to protect children in the womb.

Oh yeah, children in the womb aren't children, their lasting and unnecessary damage is nothing in comparison with a women's right to choose, etc. Children neither have the right to live and have healthy bodies if it can at all be helped, that's all I'm complaining about, so that people can be free if they so choose, of the burden of necessary and natural consequences.

I would have hoped they could have put the woman in a facility to help her with her solvent abuse.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

Find some way to protect children in the womb.

So, no concrete proposal. Well, I don't blame you for not having one; lots of smart and well-intentioned people have failed to solve the problem before you, too.

Oh yeah, children in the womb aren't children, their lasting and unnecessary damage is nothing in comparison with a women's right to choose, etc. Children neither have the right to live and have healthy bodies if it can at all be helped, that's all I'm complaining about

Then you're complaining about nothing, since nobody -- certainly not the Liberal Party -- holds any such views. I suppose it's easier to foam about strawmen than to admit the complex and difficult interactions between your doctrines and the reality that policy-makers haven't the luxury of dreaming away.

I would have hoped they could have put the woman in a facility to help her with her solvent abuse.

Are you saying it was impossible for her to get help even though she wanted treatment? The problem wasn't that she was unwilling to undertake and remain in treatment? Again, if you're outraged, sarcastic, disgusted... you must have some specific solution in mind. What is it?

[Gurdur]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

- certainly not the Liberal Party --

You another Australian, Clutch ? I always assumed you were American.

[justaman]

Originally Posted by Legs

It amazes me the stories I read where no one knew about the pregnancy - pregnant bellies are quite distinctive imo

I was left with the impression that she was probably a large girl to begin with. I've seen a couple of stories of women going into labour without even knowing they'd been pregnant. That is some strange shit.

On topic, I can't attest to knowing the details the judge talks about, but I am quite sure there are circumstances which could warrant the sentence given, and it is refreshing to see evidence of this mindset in the Australian judicial system.

The problem I suspect the detractors have is that they cannot imagine themselves ever even dreaming of doing what this young lady did. Therefore, since they are able to distinguish what they perceive to be right and wrong, so should the girl.

This is of course ignoring that it isn't them in that position. They have not been through the precise experiences she has, nor do they possess the same neurological structure. Reactions and beliefs are all different. I can imagine that to this girl's way of thinking, the only way out was to go on the path she did. I'm sure she's very sick and needs a lot of work to make her healthy again, and jail won't help that. All jail would do is satiate the revenge factor that less informed people feel they have the right to demand.

[Gurdur]

Originally Posted by justaman

On topic, I can't attest to knowing the details the judge talks about,

Maybe -- and I'm only guessing -- a transient psychosis state.

[livius drusus]

Surely jail isn't the only option, though, is it? I was thinking more along the lines of committment, or a half-way house, something like that.

[Gurdur]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Surely jail isn't the only option, though, is it? .

Were my guess of a transient psychosis (common enough) to be correct, jail would actually be contraindicated and counter-productve.